Gin-Ryu on 26/5/2007 at 16:14
That's the conclusion I come to after finishing Thief 1, about half of the missions in Thief 1 were a disappointment to me, almost frustrating to finish them. Keep in mind I've played the non-gold version so I can't speak of the improved version but my favorite missions in which I did enjoyed playing and I thought it had a good level design were:
"Break From Cragscleft Prison" despite the annoying undead
"Down In The Bonehoard" even though the tunnels were just a freaking maze
"Assassins"
"The Sword"
"Return to The Haunted Cathedral"
"The Lost City"
"Undercover"
"Strange Bedfellows"
"The Maw Of Chaos"
All others were either boring or incredibly frustrating to play in Extreme, for example finding loot on the "Haunted Cathedral" mission is such a chore I literally had to go back and forth till I could fill the requirements. And I got stuck once inside the Keeper's Groto since you can't leave after getting the stone key.
Most of the problem I think its due to the focus on combat when Garret is not a good fighter. Even though "Down In The Bonehoard" is a mission with a lot of monsters you can avoid them easly even if they notice you and the mission is more focused in figuring out the traps and the overall structure of the place.
Maybe I should have played the games when they came out and not almost 10 years later, specially when 3D graphics age so badly. Although I was quite amazed at how good the lightning looked and how more dificult it was when compared to the third game.
One more thing, aside from arsenal changes and the smaller levels I don't see where Thief 3 changed the formula to gain some hatred from some older fans.
Vigil on 26/5/2007 at 16:45
Well, those are two pretty big "aside from"s right there. On top of which I think many didn't like the way the movement felt either, and thought the freeform city bits and the fence system were a waste of time. Oh, and the factions.
For what it's worth, most people have one hell of a time meeting the loot goals in Haunted Cathedral on expert, so you're not alone in feeling frustrated to the point of hatred for having played it on that difficulty. The missions you listed are generally considered the best (with the addition of Bafford's); it seems you just enjoyed the overall game less than most did, which as you say is probably for having played it 9 years on rather than when it first came out.
As far as the new Gold missions go - one of them is terrible, the other is fairly average and the last one is quite good.
imperialreign on 26/5/2007 at 17:08
I can say palying it 10 years ago when it came out, it was great - there wasn't any other FPS like it on the market, the graphics were on par with its competition (and TDP's 3D was different than everything else, more . . . abstract, which I loved), but it was the gameplay that hooked me. Playing through most of TDP now does feel like a chore sometimes; but damn, I remeber how first time through how irritated I was trying to find loot requirements, small items (a certain KEY laying in the shadows on the FLOOR in a SPECIFIC room - y'all know which mission I'm talking about - it took me forever to find that POS). Still, if you enjoyed at least half of TDP, and haven't played T2 yet, you'll prob love it.
Goldmoon Dawn on 26/5/2007 at 19:12
Quote Posted by Gin-Ryu
One more thing, aside from arsenal changes and the smaller levels I don't see where Thief 3 changed the formula to gain some hatred from some older fans.
Why would you see, if you weren't there back in 98' when this all got started. Deadly Shadows is like a Metallica album. New fans that started with Re-Load thought they were the best band ever! Then they go back and force themselves to listen to the early records, but never really enjoy it like they were there. Then there are some new fans that completely get it and become converts. Either way, the memories will always be there and they will always be better. Because there was a real movement and inspiration behind the first game. One must never compare Deadly Shadows to The Dark Project.
(I myself am not a metallica fan)
Gin-Ryu on 26/5/2007 at 19:21
So basicly because it was a new game it was bad? Also Metallica sucked ass in the new albums.
Goldmoon Dawn on 26/5/2007 at 19:35
A simple "fair enough" could have been sufficient.
If you are not going to address what it was like being there back when Thief came out, then there is nothing further.
Gin-Ryu on 26/5/2007 at 19:43
I can't say what a Thief fan was back then because I was not one. All I can relate to is with Deus Ex which I am a big fan of the first game but unlike IW Thief 3 is actually a good game that doesn't take a crap on its predecessors.
What I can say is that the game probably got more hatred due to the fact it came from Ion Storm and used the IW engine which I think can't even render water.
The changes to the gameplay were not as drastic as one would think, the biggest one would be the dificulty and areas size and the new prespective but I played the game in first person so I can't say anything about that.
imperialreign on 26/5/2007 at 20:40
just to throw out changes I wasn't happy with in TDS:
removal of a button for running; in T2 you could have a seperate button for sneaking, walking, and running - whereas in TDS you had to hold a button, plus your walking button to sneak or run
1st person POV being more of an afterthought - it's really only 3rd person with the camera relocated to reflect 1st POV. This equated to odd movement when played in 1st POV that took some time to get used to
Removal of Keys, Lockpicks, and special items from your inventory - these items were just used when you needed them, instead of having to select them and use them - along with edible food, readable scrolls and various other inventory items, they made your inventory feel more "fleshed out" than just "secondary weaponry"
that annoying noise when zooming in - I can live with the brownish tint supposedly being from Garrett's mechanical eye, but the noise was a little ridiculous, IMHO
having to press a button to de-nock an arrow, instead of just changing to a different weapon
the inability to raise and hold the blackjack, just didn't feel right
as much as the AI was a TON more receptive to their surroundings, I honestly thought they would give up the search way too easy, which made circumventing your opponents a bit easy at times
TDS was a bit short, compared to the length of TDP and especially T2 - I would much rather have had the city hub's removed and 4-5 full length missions instead
Now, TDS also had some high points, too - I still thought it was a good game, just a little hacked and slashed
Vigil on 26/5/2007 at 20:53
While I felt the movement was awkward myself, I just wanted to note that the 1st person view wasn't an afterthought. The game was designed for it, then they hacked in 3rd person to make it easier to test that their player animations were working correctly. The result worked well (better, really, than the 1st person did in that game) so they left it in. The awkwardness in 1st person was the result of the camera movement being tied to the animation state of the player's body - but this was a deliberate design decision from the start to allow "body awareness".
Try Chronicles of Riddick for an example of a game that manages to do this kind of animation-anchored movement fluidly in 1st person. Dark Messiah also does it, but not as well in my opinion.
Martek on 26/5/2007 at 20:54
And don't forget the super-annoying "step lean" that TDS had. :mad:
Though overall I didn't "hate" TDS. I just don't think it was as good as the other two - but I still liked it.
As far as TG, the additions to the mission The Sword alone make it worthwhile. :)
Quote Posted by Vigil
As far as the new Gold missions go - one of them is terrible, the other is fairly average and the last one is quite good.
Are referring to the new mission
"Thieves Guild" as the terrible one? For the OP, keep in mind that everyone has different tastes. For example I really enjoyed that mission though for many it was seen as worst of not only the new missions, but nearly worst of the game. I liked it, and perhaps you would as well.
Martek
