Vigil on 26/5/2007 at 20:56
I did bear people's differing tastes in mind, but I felt that from what the OP said about the other missions that Thieves' Guild would be one he'd really hate.
Gin-Ryu on 26/5/2007 at 21:02
Quote Posted by imperialreign
just to throw out changes I wasn't happy with in TDS:
removal of a button for running; in T2 you could have a seperate button for sneaking, walking, and running - whereas in TDS you had to hold a button, plus your walking button to sneak or run
Run buttons have well been replaced with the walk button it's just an evolution of gaming design, if you can move faster gamers dont generally want to move at the lowest speed by default. Although a sneaking game like Thief is diferent, this one is more likely a compromisse made by the fact it was developed for a console as well.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
1st person POV being more of an afterthought - it's really only 3rd person with the camera relocated to reflect 1st POV. This equated to odd movement when played in 1st POV that took some time to get used to
I really had no problem whatsoever with either moving or head-bobing so I guess theres not much to argue here besides I'm fine with it you're not.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
Removal of Keys, Lockpicks, and special items from your inventory - these items were just used when you needed them, instead of having to select them and use them - along with edible food, readable scrolls and various other inventory items, they made your inventory feel more "fleshed out" than just "secondary weaponry"
Game design changes to give some conviniences to the players, for example a loot all button on CRPGS.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
that annoying noise when zooming in - I can live with the brownish tint supposedly being from Garrett's mechanical eye, but the noise was a little ridiculous, IMHO
The eye did a similar noise on the end cut-scene on Thief 1 when moving. Again it's just a matter of taste I guess. Also the brownish tint, at least it's what I think, was there so that you can see your surroudings in case you're in a really dark room, it works for me in case I need to see anything in particular.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
having to press a button to de-nock an arrow, instead of just changing to a different weapon
Not really game-breaking but yeah I can see your point.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
the inability to raise and hold the blackjack, just didn't feel right
On the other hand the auto-raise is a way to let you know you are in distance for a knock down, although to me using the black-jack while crouched is a bit cheap and more worring.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
as much as the AI was a TON more receptive to their surroundings, I honestly thought they would give up the search way too easy, which made circumventing your opponents a bit easy at times
To me it feels about the same time as Thief 1 might have to replay to check though.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
TDS was a bit short, compared to the length of TDP and especially T2 - I would much rather have had the city hub's removed and 4-5 full length missions instead
Hmm can't really say although more missions wouldnt hurt it.
Quote Posted by imperialreign
Now, TDS also had some high points, too - I still thought it was a good game, just a little hacked and slashed
All those points feel more like minor issues to me, not really game-breaking or enough to ruin the experience.
Quote Posted by Vigil
I did bear people's differing tastes in mind, but I felt that from what the OP said about the other missions that Thieves' Guild would be one he'd really hate.
hmm too bad it sounded it could be a great mission setting
Vigil on 26/5/2007 at 21:06
Quote Posted by Gin-Ryu
Although this one is more likely a compromisse made by the fact it was developed for a console as well.
Not really...the analog thumbstick on a gamepad allows you to move at whatever speed you like, as did a joystick in the original Thief games. The existence of run/walk/creep toggles is more of a concession to the keyboard than a concession to the console.
Besides analog movement speeds, there's a couple of other things the XBox version of Thief DS does better: you can un-nock an arrow by slowly releasing the trigger instead of letting go quickly, and you can look around while you're lockpicking. Generally speaking I'd say gamepads are superior for "movement-oriented" games like Thief except, unfortunately, when it comes to combat.
Schwaa2 on 26/5/2007 at 21:09
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Why would you see, if you weren't there back in 98' when this all got started. Deadly Shadows is like a Metallica album. New fans that started with Re-Load thought they were the best band ever! Then they go back and force themselves to listen to the early records, but never really enjoy it like they were there. Then there are some new fans that completely get it and become converts. Either way, the memories will always be there and they will always be better. Because there was a real movement and inspiration behind the first game. One must never compare Deadly Shadows to The Dark Project.
(I myself am not a metallica fan)
This is a great analogy, but I guess not being a Metallica fan you missed the best part. T3 was like 'Metallica' (or 'None more black' - but that's a very obscure reference), even more so the newer metallica albums.
The olde Metallica kicked @$$, Cliff dies and they started to fade. Once 'Metallica' hit they were done, everything is rehashed and simplistic IMO compared to the older albums. Same song over and over.
The new fans might not get the old music, but the old fans are disappointed with the new stuff. Same with T3, everyone came to expect a certian quality/feeling to Thief. T3 changed alot of that even though it's a much better game visually. They got rid of tools that are required (rope arrows), if they would've paid more attention to the forums they probably would've known that, and I bet some of the team did, I blame that on managment :)
They did a good job of making a bleak city atmosphere, but it was pretty bland. Blah blah... Dark Mod will redeem.
Gin-Ryu on 26/5/2007 at 21:14
Quote Posted by Vigil
Not really...the analog thumbstick on a gamepad allows you to move at whatever speed you like, as did a joystick in the original Thief games. The existence of run/walk/creep toggles is more of a concession to the keyboard than a concession to the console.
That is true but it's not a good way to move in a precise way, meaning that its less frustrating for the player to have a button that makes you either sneak or walk than have it controlled by analog sensitivity.
Martek on 26/5/2007 at 22:16
Quote Posted by Gin-Ryu
On the other hand the auto-raise is a way to let you know you are in distance for a knock down, although to me using the black-jack while crouched is a bit cheap and more worring.
Not to try to speak for everyone, but I know that for a few of us at least, including myself, we didn't "needno stinkin' auto-raise" to know we were "in distance". We relied upon "thiefy skills and experience" to tell us. :)
c130 on 26/5/2007 at 22:31
Quote Posted by imperialreign
removal of a button for running; in T2 you could have a seperate button for sneaking, walking, and running - whereas in TDS you had to hold a button, plus your walking button to sneak or run
I personally find it more logical to have a "forward" button with separate "speed modifier" buttons, than to have completely separate creep, walk and run buttons. It's just personal preference, because that's how most games I play are set up.
Quote:
1st person POV being more of an afterthought - it's really only 3rd person with the camera relocated to reflect 1st POV. This equated to odd movement when played in 1st POV that took some time to get used to
I find the "awkwardness" makes it more natural-feeling than most other games I play. It makes actions feel more substantial than just being a camera floating at head-height, and it gets me more involved with the game.
Quote:
Removal of Keys, Lockpicks, and special items from your inventory - these items were just used when you needed them, instead of having to select them and use them - along with edible food, readable scrolls and various other inventory items, they made your inventory feel more "fleshed out" than just "secondary weaponry"
I really didn't like how my inventory in the old Thiefs would get filled up with junk that I just ended up discarding. Keys and lockpicks were horrible. You'd select it, use it, scroll back through your inventory to free hands, then open the door/lid you unlocked. If you didn't deselect the key/lockpick, it would keep shifting to the center of the screen rather than letting you open the door. If you didn't select empty hands, you might end up accidentally using an item like a health potion if you missed the door and right-clicked on empty space. And with an inventory full of un-necessary stuff you'd spend forever scrolling through to find the item you wanted to use.
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TDS was a bit short, compared to the length of TDP and especially T2 - I would much rather have had the city hub's removed and 4-5 full length missions instead
Ahh I LOVED the inclusion of streets. I've spent hours there entertaining myself with all the folk walking around. Being able to explore the streets makes the game feel more realistic, and that in turn gets me more immersed. That's one of the things I loved in Deus Ex too, the fact it wasn't just a bunch of levels stuck together, but you would travel from place to place, walking down the street and through the city to get to where you were going. I like games that create a whole little universe for you and guide you through it, rather than old fashioned level by level.
It would've been so much more awsome if it was a bit longer, though I find it a reasonable length as it is. I wouldn't compromise the story just to get a few more levels out of it though. Some games feel like there was too little butter spread out over too much toast, and they cease being immersive and enjoyable.
Doc_Brown on 26/5/2007 at 23:48
Quote Posted by Vigil
Besides analog movement speeds, there's a couple of other things the XBox version of Thief DS does better:
...
you can look around while you're lockpicking.
:erg: Um, you
do realize you can do that with the PC version too, right?
imperialreign on 27/5/2007 at 00:04
Still, I thought TDS was good, just a bit lacking compared to the originals that I got started with;
Quote:
Run buttons have well been replaced with the walk button it's just an evolution of gaming design, if you can move faster gamers dont generally want to move at the lowest speed by default. Although a sneaking game like Thief is diferent, this one is more likely a compromisse made by the fact it was developed for a console as well.
I can agree with that to an extent, considering that new players of the XboX version of TDS, and new to the Thief series were used to running all the time thanks to fragfest FPS's like Doom and Quake - in TDS, IMO, it was more 'giving in' to the potential market, than it was appeasing fans of the original series
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I find the "awkwardness" makes it more natural-feeling than most other games I play. It makes actions feel more substantial than just being a camera floating at head-height, and it gets me more involved with the game.
It can be natural, to a sense - but how many of us that were faithful to the 1st POV after playing T1/T2 had to face the learning curve in TDS? It was irritating mantling up onto a beam, then turning 160* to the left and tapping forward just to line yourself up so you wouldn't fall off. I don't know about you, but anyone can make a 90* turn without having to have a "turning radius"
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I wouldn't compromise the story just to get a few more levels out of it though. Some games feel like there was too little butter spread out over too much toast, and they cease being immersive and enjoyable.
And I agree wholeheartedly. I wouldn't want any game developer to go and cram a few more missions if it would hurt the overall storyline - it would've been possible for a few more small missions to have helped expand the sotry just a tiny bit - or even better, having made some of the mini-missions longer
Goldmoon Dawn on 27/5/2007 at 01:05
Quote Posted by Gin-Ryu
I really had no problem whatsoever with either moving or head-bobing so I guess theres not much to argue here besides I'm fine with it you're not.
Yeah, because you're not running across some path and jumping up onto a rope arrow anywhere in this game. Garrett would probably trip over his feet. Thief I had an amazing physics engine, my friend. In addition to playing like you normally would, you could even run and jump and do many wonderful acrobatic things. Things that weren't required. There were plenty of well thought out areas for this, with no load zones which meant that one could stay absorbed forever. Deadly was designed for new fans, to cash in on a name much like The Black Album. If the Missions in Deadly were any bigger, Garrett's movement through them might have crippled the game even further! At least with the shorter Missions, the player never has to really be bothered with excessive freedom of movement. :p
