Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest format - Poll Closed

Marzec on 7/2/2019 at 20:39

Quote Posted by Brethren

Two contests at the same time is a really bad idea.

Let's schedule it right after the anniversary contest results, maybe?

skacky on 7/2/2019 at 22:01

Quote Posted by Judith

Still, stock resource only looks more like gatekeeping and catering only to selected creators, who already had their needs fulfilled in last contest.

Sorry but that couldn't be further from the truth. The main reason why the previous contest was limited to mostly stock was so that beginners could join without having to learn how to import textures, meshes or objects. DromEd is an intimidating editor and mapping for Thief really isn't an easy task, so this decision was the opposite of gatekeeping. And I like to believe I was right, considering the amount of new authors who published their first FMs during the contest. Swiz, mtk, Psych0sis, Jayrude, Schlock, vfig and McTaffer. That's quite a bit.

DirkBogan on 8/2/2019 at 05:47

Can I just reiterate what has already been said in basically every other thread about the 20th Anniversary Contest for TDP: that it was an absolute triumph of passion and creativity? From what I can gauge in the few general threads and all the specific mission threads about it, the overwhelming majority opinion is that it's one of the best things ever produced by members of this forum. As Skacky noted, it invigorated so many people to make an FM for the first time, and for a twenty year old game! I personally found that almost every mission competed with or far outstripped even the best OMs in terms of quality.

Seriously, to everyone who organised or participated in the TDP20AC contest, thank you so much, and thank you for organising this next one for The Metal Age. It's amazing that there are so many people willing to engage with this relatively niche endeavour after so many years.

Judith on 8/2/2019 at 09:21

Quote:

I personally found that almost every mission competed with or far outstripped even the best OMs in terms of quality.

Now that is living in a self-congratulatory bubble, I'm afraid. Rarely any FM is on par with actual mission design of OMs, in terms of things like open-ended layout, player choice, pacing, clear visual language and consistent use of the systems. Instead, there are arcadey platforming sections, obscure puzzles, prolonged lockpick times, super tight guard patrolling, lenghty readables or exposition dumps in both text and cutscenes, and many, many more symptoms of not learning the basics. All of this is mistaken as being better than OMs, more elite, difficult, or sophisticated. At the same time, most of FM threads are several pages long not because of the praise, but because players got stuck so often and in so many places. Since any design is about communication, and game design is mostly about teaching and rewarding players, most of these missions are a failure at communication. What's funny is that even the most prolific veteran FM makers still make such mistakes, so they haven't grown much as designers throughout the years, they just released many missions.

Yandros on 8/2/2019 at 13:59

While you're more than welcome to express your opinions about the contest missions and the design quality of FM's in general, Judith, I think it's safe to say that the majority of players here disagree with your criticisms, which, frankly, usually come across as smug and condescending. I'm not saying your criticisms of the lackluster gameplay design and lack of growth in that regard among many authors here, myself included, aren't wholly without merit - I'm just saying that most people here don't appear to care.

Psych0sis on 8/2/2019 at 15:49

Quote Posted by Judith

Quite literally half the contest missions are more expansive, give more player freedom, contain interesting locales, with solid structures in their experiences and were far above MANY of the original OMs.

Your argument also contains huge leaps of logic that anyone would have to make to accept. Suddenly using custom objects and textures will make the map layouts and structuring of the objectives any less "confusing"? Maybe for someone who can't open up their objectives page, read the name of the place they should work towards, and then look at the map and work towards it, but perhaps that's a little overwhelming.

The rest of your post just comes off as "holier than thou" and from someone who I'm fairly certain will not participate at all either way.

Judith on 8/2/2019 at 15:55

Quote:

I kinda suspected that, that was more of reaction to the smugness of JarlFrank's "maybe Thief's not for you" and starry-eyedness of DirkBogan. But at this point, it has little to do with actual contest, whether with custom assets or not.

Renault on 8/2/2019 at 16:03

@Judith - Not to pile on too much, but it's hard to take all your criticism seriously when you've only played 10-20% of the contest missions in total. I know you think your time is valuable (as if everyone else's isn't?), but if that's the case then why do you waste time posting here, making mass judgments on missions you've barley played and aren't that interested in to start with?

Edit: On the heels of that, I'll just say that I think you really should play some of the other missions. There are several really good ones that you haven't mentioned, and they might change your opinion.

Twist on 8/2/2019 at 18:02

Judith, as I said earlier, I agree that there's a little bit of an insular design bubble in the Thief community.

But it is nowhere near as bad as you make it to be. And as Brethren said, I seriously doubt you've given a fair chance to all the missions in this contest. There IS some excellent, mature game design in this contest. So much so that I've wondered if some of the anonymous or aliased entries came from designers we'd lost to Arkane or elsewhere. (I don't actually think so, but the quality of some of the design made me consider the notion.)

Just to isolate one simple, quick, concrete example: A problem with many Thief missions is how reliant they are on quick save and quick load, particularly when verticality and Thief's variation of first-person platforming have become so popular in the community. The Sound Of A Burrick In A Room features some crazy vertical gameplay, requiring death-defying leaps at dizzying heights. But the most daring leaps are made above a canal, and the clever connectivity of the mission makes it so in most cases if you miss the jump/mantle or Thief's zany rope physics punishes you, you can fall into the water, then use a series of fun shortcuts back to where you were (...or the fall leads you to all new discoveries).

My sense about you and your posting habits is that you're less interested in contributing to the community or improving it, and more interested in inflating your ego on a video gaming forum. Sometimes it seems like all you do is smugly criticise everything. Even to me, someone who agrees with some of your basic points, you come off as adolescent rather than compelling or persuasive.

Show us why we should respect you, in a productive manner, rather than constantly, belligerently telling us, or we'll just think you're the poster child for the emperor's new clothes.

Judith on 8/2/2019 at 19:26

I already said what issues I had with missions I played, none of which had any substantial rebuttal. I've also been linking to several "classic" tutorials in misc discussions over the years. But Yandros' version is more probable, most people just don't care. And that's fine, as long as you don't talk yourself into believing that your're better than the devs, or that Thief isn't for people who don't appreciate FMs enough, because that's rather delusional.