Twist on 8/2/2019 at 23:23
Nice examples and explanations, Dirk, but Judith will likely point out that he's talking about elements outside of architecture and interior design.
I don't like this 90s games vs modern games dichotomy. It trivializes and marginalizes both eras. There was some good and bad design back then and there is some good and bad design today. We have seen improvements in understanding and defining the difference between good and bad design, but we have also seen new bad habits infuse modern games.
There are ways design could be improved in this community, but most of it has a little to do with whether or not a Thief FM adheres to modern design principles or 90s design principles.
As Yandros and Random Taffer agreed earlier in the thread, it would be nice to critically discuss how Thief FM design could be improved, but as I said, that rarely seems to work out in this forum. It always seems to devolve into people sniping at each other. Authors really have to go to other places if they want strong constructive criticism of their work.
Just in the last few posts, you can already see that happening here (and I include myself in this). You've got Judith wielding simple-minded, petty, dismissive arguments as if his oh-so-sophisticated criticism required sophisticated rebuttal. But then you've got people defensively responding to him by outright dismissing modern game design or seeming to dismiss how anything could be gleaned from all the game design discourse of the last two decades.
Oh well. I still think the 20th Anniversary Contest produced some fantastic design for any era.
I can see how for outsiders, the difficulty might be too steep and the visual language -- how the author communicates what to do or where to go next and how, what are all the player's options right now, etc. -- might be too vague. There are also some fundamental quirks with AI and collision-detection that might deter outsiders not accustomed to them, and I think authors could do better in designing around those quirks.
But for its audience -- that is, the experienced Thief FM players who will be the ones to really download, play and discuss the missions in this contest -- several of these missions play nearly as well as some missions in the modern, critically-acclaimed games made by Arkane. Judith would not agree, of course, but I'd bet that some of the designers at Arkane would agree.
skacky on 9/2/2019 at 01:47
Another thing to take into account is that a vast majority of FM makers here have no desire to pursue a career in level design whatsoever. With this in mind, it is quite normal for them to either ignore industry trends or try new things that don't necessarily fit into the original Thief design principles. Judith is correct that there's a number of FMs that either ignore basic principles, willfully or not, or subvert them, but again most people here are hobbyists and it's unfair to expect them to apply advanced level design techniques or put them on the same level as the MIT geniuses of LGS, especially considering they themselves don't consider themselves better than LGS designers. I said it before, but Thief is a very complicated game to map for. There are tons of things to take into account and the editor itself is from another era. It's not your run of the mill FPS where the same layout can work in another game. What works for Thief works only for Thief most of the time.
That being said, for mere hobbyists, some of them are incredibly good and showed it quite brilliantly in the contest. And yes, there are defininitely a few FMs out there that are on par, if not better, than OMs. Heist Society, Hidden Agenda, Heart of Bohn, Disorientation or Conspiracies in the Dark to name a few.
Melan on 9/2/2019 at 09:23
I will readily admit Rose Garden, my contest mission, is on the hard and obscure side. Some of that is due to lack of testing with beginners (I barely completed it by the deadline, and only had a short 2-week beta period), but most of it is by deliberate, conscious design. If I were to revise it, I would do 90% of it the exact same - and I put a lot of thought into it (many of my ideas therein date back to 2010). I accept it is not for everyone. It is for myself and like-minded people who appreciate mysteries, unresolved plotlines, being a bit out of depth, and a whole lot of exploration. That is where my mind is these days.
I don't have an interest in modern design trends. FPS games after Half-Life 2 hold no interest for me (Dishonored is an outlier). I think the industry has picked up a "common wisdom" that results in games glorifying disposable entertainment, and which distills everything into a design bubble - a different one than ours. I am also starting to believe Roberta Williams had a point way back in 1999. Because that's the last design era games were made to my preferences. (And they can still be made that way today - Grimoire and Dusk are my two new favourites from vastly different genres.)
Judith on 9/2/2019 at 10:31
Yup, I didn't mean the architectural complexity only, that's kind of obvious that it scaled both with the engine and with additional features of NewDark, which was inaccessible to devs at the time. I meant the quality of design.
There is no dichotomy between crude 90s design and modern times, it's just by sticking to that era and making something in 2019 you're wasting an opportunity to either say something new with the good old technology / aesthetics (like today's retro indie games do), or communicating what's great about the old game to the broader audience.
I agree that's unfair to demand pro level from hobbyists, and, believe it or not, I do praise the FMs which in my opinion "did the homework" in design department (last one I accidentally came across was Precarious Business, IIRC). I just disagree with the overall level of high praise towards almost anything that gets released as "surpassing the OMs", because that is still a rare / hard thing to do (as mapping for stealth singleplayer games generally is).
Modern games do get a lot of things right, contrary to general opinion here, and they're not just about QTEs. They value player's time better, they use all the means used in painting, photography, and architecture to guide the player's eye towards important things. It's not only modern stealth games like Dishonored, but also titles that mix that oldschool difficulty with communication with the player, like the Dark Souls series.
skacky on 9/2/2019 at 12:02
Quote Posted by Judith
Modern games do get a lot of things right, contrary to general opinion here, and they're not just about QTEs. They value player's time better, they use all the means used in painting, photography, and architecture to guide the player's eye towards important things. It's not only modern stealth games like Dishonored, but also titles that mix that oldschool difficulty with communication with the player, like the Dark Souls series.
That's accurate, even though old school design still did this quite a lot. You also have to admit your two examples are unusual games when it comes to "modern" design. The Souls series in particular was a breath of fresh air with the kind of level design that just wasn't seen anymore for a good ten years or so.
Marzec on 9/2/2019 at 12:37
Going a bit off topic, are we? ;)
Regarding stock-derived vs custom resources discussion here, I have a question to future organizers. Assume I participate in the contest. I release mission A which goes to the contest with stock-derived resources only. In the same time I release another mission B, which is exactly the same mission but has custom resources. Would that be allowed by organizing team?
Someone might say it is twice work for me, but actually it is not. I have an idea how I can do that very easily.
This idea comes to my mind when I think how to satisfy most of the players (or all players, if we have only these two groups from the poll). I realized the question asked in the poll is actually "which resource pack would you choose?" question, so I say "let's solve it with resource packs".
Of course some ppl will say the high-quality version of the mission wont be the same mission and you can not vote based on the high-quality release. Let's put into contest rules that we wont vote based on the high-quality release. What do you guys think about it?
SirLord Best on 9/2/2019 at 19:40
I've voted for the Stock Resources as after playing all the the T1 Contest mission's with just the stock resources, I was really impressed!
Bulgarian_Taffer on 9/2/2019 at 21:03
Quote Posted by Brethren
Yes, considering modern games are typically over simplified, super accessible, and completely linear with minimal challenge, I'll take 90s games like Thief/Deus Ex/System Shock any day of the week. Modern doesn't necessarily equate to good. I have to assume that Judith prefers Thief 2014 over any of the original Thief games from the ancient, late 90s. So take anything said with a huge grain of salt.
So, if you like Thief (2014), you aren't a true Thief fan?
Mmmkay...
But at least Thief (2014) is an original game of the series...
DarkMax on 9/2/2019 at 21:14
Everybody can like Thief (2014), but that doesn't quit the fact that it was a failure of epic proportions.
Bulgarian_Taffer on 9/2/2019 at 21:29
Quote Posted by DarkMax
Everybody can live Thief (2014), but that doesn't quit the fact that it was a failure of epic proportions.
Well... it was an official product. It gained some popularity in the media. It gained some reviews (yes, a lot of them were negative). I wouldn't call that a failure of epic proportions. What about an event dedicated to the 20th anniversary of Thief, with a huge potential to reignite the interest in the game, but that potential was short-lived? That's another thing.
There are reasons why this happened.
But why should you care about what I say? I have adapted to modern trends. If you fail to see the importance of instant gratification in gaming, that's not my problem.
