Thief 3 ending: Misinterpreted

negative_len on 1/6/2009 at 14:14

Hi everybody. I'm a new member here, so first off, a bit of perspective. I first learned about the Thief series with Deadly Shadows back in 2006 or thereabouts. I played the game and loved it (not a widely shared opinion here; partially I liked it because I didn't have T1 and T2 to contrast it with), then went back and played the original two games. My favorite of the series is actually the unofficial expansion pack T2X, which combines heavily detailed design with good graphics. A few months ago, I was so inspired by watching the entire T2X developer commentary that I started work on my own Thief 2 FM, with no prior experience.

Anyway. After reading (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=89305) this topic I just watched the Thief 3 ending cutscene for the first time in a year or two and I have to disagree with most people's interpretation of it.

As far as I can see, all this stuff about Garrett becoming the "one true Keeper" and taking on an apprentice is nonsense. I never got the 1TK impression during my multiple playthroughs of the actual game and have only learned about it since on the web. As for the final cutscene, the apprentice route is one way it could go, but only if you want it to. Nothing is overtly stated or implied except that the Keepers are pretty much over and done with, although a remaining splinter faction of them is pretty much inevitable. The glyphs storyline could go anywhere.

Treat it for what it is: a somewhat artificial and, I think, slightly wince-worthy homage to the first cutscene of TDP by a developer who was preparing to make a modern reboot of the series.

I think the main question isn't "What really happened?" but "What do you want to be true for the sequel?" I think that good storytelling in Thief 4 could pull off any number of continuation possibilities successfully. What it'll be depends on when they set it. It might be a prequel, in between TDP and TMA, right after TDS, 5+ years later; all could be good, if properly done.

I bet they give the girl throwing knives.

Platinumoxicity on 1/6/2009 at 14:31

Do you think that my impression of the happenings is the majority's impression and different from yours? Or do you agree that:

Opinions commencing...

The deeper meaning of things:
-TDS end cutscene was a homage to TDP's beginning but does not mean that Garrett is going to force the girl to be his apprentice.
-In the TDS end cutscene Garrett gives the girl a choice just like the keeper gave Garrett in the beginning, only that Garrett accepted his offer.
-The prophecies were always right, but the keepers only had an illusion of being able to influence them and that was their downfall.
-Garrett's "true keeper" -status means that he has always been the one who tipped the scales in the prophecies, but the pre-written future has always been inevitable.
-Garrett's "true keeper" -status means that he is everything that the keepers never were.
-The prophecies are gone, the future is not pre-written, and Garrett is becoming the "true keeper" by finally being able to influence events by clever manipulation.

Because I think the majority don't see it that way and only see the facade of mainstream plots.

The obvious, mainstream inspired plot points are:
-Garrett is the only keeper left (in a way the keepers were keepers)
-Keepers were powerful and influencial people who shaped the future
-The girl says: "I caught up with him just before he vanished into the crowd. It was the beginning of a very long education." instead of "leave me alone"

Opinions succesfully presented.

charpe6 on 1/6/2009 at 14:36

All they have to do to make Thief 4 a resounding success with the fans is to bring back the immersive stealth experience of the first two games. If all they had was a series of missions in which all you know is that this guy has lots of loot in his mansion and you have to sneak in and steal as much as possible then I'd enjoy it.

Now thats not to say that the plot of the game isn't important. It just isn't essential that Garrett and the Keepers be in this new game.

negative_len on 1/6/2009 at 14:46

I prefer to think of all the prophecy stuff as an interesting enigma. Prophecy plots are way overused in my opinion. It's more appealing when it remains an unexplored mystery.

My point is that the ending of TDS is less about the storyline and more about a reference to how the story started. Ion Storm never expected to have to revisit the plot so they didn't think about the ramifications it would have for the sequel.

There's no real reason that cutscene would happen except that it was one way to wrap up the game. At least in my opinion.

Platinumoxicity on 1/6/2009 at 14:47

Quote Posted by charpe6

You are very right there. But I want to also make sure that there is not a meddling child on the way and Garrett hasn't got any keeper "powers". I don't want Garrett to become any more of a keeper than he's been. :p

belboz on 5/6/2009 at 19:29

that last scene in thief 3 seems tacked on if you watch the movie it doesn't seem to match what happened earlier in the movie sequence.

negative_len on 6/6/2009 at 10:55

Quote Posted by belboz

that last scene in thief 3 seems tacked on if you watch the movie it doesn't seem to match what happened earlier in the movie sequence.

What do you mean? It seemed to match to me, although the ending generally was a little abrupt. But I agree that it seemed tacked on storyline-wise.

I wonder what EM thinks of all this. Basically from their point of view there are two options, either go with the ending T3 gave or ignore it (or set it in a different time period). After 7 years (by the time T4 comes out) they'll probably want to begin in much the way T3 began, with a clean slate that includes references and plot points from the previous games that you don't have to get. I was surprised to find Gamall and other characters in the original games when I went back to play them.

Dia on 6/6/2009 at 13:10

Quote Posted by negative_len

As far as I can see, all this stuff about Garrett becoming the "one true Keeper" and taking on an apprentice is nonsense. I never got the 1TK impression during my multiple playthroughs of the actual game and have only learned about it since on the web. As for the final cutscene, the apprentice route is one way it could go, but only if you want it to. Nothing is overtly stated or implied except that the Keepers are pretty much over and done with, although a remaining splinter faction of them is pretty much inevitable. The glyphs storyline could go anywhere.

Treat it for what it is: a somewhat artificial and, I think, slightly wince-worthy homage to the first cutscene of TDP by a developer who was preparing to make a modern reboot of the series.

Nonsense? No; just an opinion shared by a majority. An opinion can't be true or false because it's a subjective idea, a preference. You may disagree with it and have your own opinion about it but everyone's opinion is true for them. That said, I didn't see the TDS ending cutscene as any sort of homage to the first cutscene in TDP, but rather as the authors showing that Garrett's saga had come full-circle. An indicator of how far he'd come and how much he'd grown in experience and perhaps even wisdom.

As far as the Keepers being over & done with, there's always the possibility that they aren't; that they might have another agenda in which Garrett plays a major part. (Hell; everyone thought Star Trek was over & done with once upon a time, right? ;) ) Bottom line: it depends on the perception/imagination of the devs at EM of the events of all three games. Imo however, possibilities abound regarding a storyline revolving around the Keepers & Garrett.

Quote Posted by negative_len

I think the main question isn't "What really happened?" but "What do you want to be true for the sequel?" I think that good storytelling in Thief 4 could pull off any number of continuation possibilities successfully. What it'll be depends on when they set it. It might be a prequel, in between TDP and TMA, right after TDS, 5+ years later; all could be good, if properly done.

I think both are separate and valid questions. Once again, it all depends on one's interpretation of the events of the three games. I agree that there are an abundance of possibilities for the continuation of the Thief saga as told through TDP, TMA, & TDS. But as I said; we can want all we want, however it's EM that is going to create T4, not us.

Quote Posted by negative_len

I bet they give the girl throwing knives.

Ahhh yes; The Girl. I saw her not as a character who could possibly become Garrett's successor, but more like a prop, a means by which to illustrate the 'full-circle' theory. In my opinion, in the T4 world, there is no girl. :p

Platinumoxicity on 6/6/2009 at 15:22

I think the last bit of TDS, the one with the girl was just an ironic coincidence to Garrett and he lol'd and it shouldn't imply that Garrett has changed to something else or that Garrett has to take the girl with him. :p

theBlackman on 7/6/2009 at 02:02

Platinumoxicity

The written recorded prophecies are gone, and now not to be known. But the prophecies themselves, like that tree that falls in the forest, are still extant, because someone made them.

Like the sound, we don't know it was made, and the prophecies, if they come true, won't effect us as we will be unaware of their fullfilment. :ebil: