Sxerks on 13/5/2012 at 21:59
Someone spilled Assassins Creed all over my Thief.
Bakerman on 13/5/2012 at 22:14
Quote Posted by Neb
The issue is that having control taken away from you is not fun. It looks cooler, though.
I quite liked the first-person 'takedowns' in Dark Messiah. If anything, I'd like something like that for Thief, though obviously more of the blackjacking and garrotting than stabbing your sword through some guy's face. Control is an issue - not sure if that's solvable, but it'd be great to be able to break out of those sorts of finishing moves at reasonable times. Or, especially in the case of something like a garrotte, to be able to drag your victim around a bit, with or without their cooperation.
jtr7 on 13/5/2012 at 22:14
Certain features are not enjoyed in any game by certain people.
Certain features are enjoyed in certain games by certain people, great in other games but not this kind.
Certain features will undermine what is beloved of the series for certain people by changing visceral experiences outside the game mechanics to the point that it creates wearying tedium.
Certain features will undermine what is beloved of the series for certain people by interfering with the feel of the movement, and reinforcing what is unsatisfactory and disappointing.
Certain features will distract, break focus, irritate, hinder, and foul enjoyment for certain people.
Gamers can already enjoy games with features, and the features of games, that have made fervent non-gamers out of certain people.
Dissatisfaction with the industry is based entirely on being unable to enjoy most games for the mere constant and compounded (chosen as progress, evolution, popular) fouling presence of un-ignorable features and mechanics and navigational and HUD design.
Like I said: If you don't have a problem with modern gaming in general, and can enjoy or relish many games that overlap Thief in game design, then you will never understand these complaints, but to us, it's valid. I already can say I know T4 will not be playable by some of us, tech aside. You will always get your games and end enjoy them and have vast choices, while we few do not. Words and head-scratching won't fix or improve or guide us to game enjoyment, as it's not a choice, but an unshakable imposition. We don't relate, and that's par for the course. My fanaticism for Thief comes from having only a couple of really good gaming titles I can enjoy out of seemingly the whole industry. I can enjoy Diablo and Solitaire, but not even close to the satisfaction I get on so many combined levels in one package, and have no desire to purchase a game that's merely better than Solitaire for me, but falls short of the Thief experience--Not yours, which is different, but mine.
Gaming enjoyment dwindled for a good decade before Thief came along and gave us what we couldn't know was one last surge of real gaming enjoyment. In fact, old Thief even superseded all of childhood's gaming put together for myself, back when I might have even called myself a proud gamer, had it been a cultural label.
A faithful Thief 4 won't shut me out as it brings in others. Faithfulness here and there divided among iconic elements isn't gonna cut it at all. Thief 4 will leave me cold simply because the industry has grown up and the mass-audience must get a piece of the niche-market payroll. What must be done to Thief to bring in the wider audience in this age are bring in things that drove me away to begin with, and the new things added to that list every year.
I hope I get to see another game this decade that I can really enjoy again. Just one. I'm used to only having a couple in the last two decades, with a lifestyle that leaves little room for hours of gaming, but I'm still not used to having a dedicated fan-site overrun by people who don't care about most or all of Thief--regardless of interest or fandom in the distant past--but who have made a hobby of focusing on those fans' interests and concerns, only their commentary fills up and stoppers the place.
Al_B on 13/5/2012 at 22:44
Quote Posted by jtr7
Gaming enjoyment dwindled for a good decade before Thief came along and gave us what we couldn't know was one last surge of real gaming enjoyment. In fact, old Thief even superseded all of childhood's gaming put together for myself, back when I might have even called myself a proud gamer, had it been a cultural label.
That probably explains the difficulty I have in coming to terms with your point of view. For me, gaming wasn't in the doldrums for a decade before Thief. Even excluding other Origin titles such as U7, the Underworlds, System Shock 1 and Wing Commander this was the decade that saw X-Wing, Civilization, Command & Conquer, X-Com, Doom and related sequels and spin-offs. None of them may have been of interest to you, but in many ways these were just some of the titles pushed things forward and they were immensely enjoyable in their own way.
Things are similar today and there'll be people in ten years time getting misty-eyed over the sort of experiences that they had in minecraft, Left 4 Dead or the Binding of Isaac. If you don't find enjoyment in games these days then it's quite possibly due to your personal feelings rather than due to the industry as a whole.
I'll be honest - I actually thought that the original Thief when it came out was a little disappointing. Compared to some of LGS's previous games, things had been stripped out, gameplay was a lot more linear and it took a while to cope with some gameplay aspects (e.g. zombies). However, once I got over that mental hurdle and started to enjoy the game my attitude changed. I suspect it will be the same with Thief 4 with things that disappoint and annoy compared to the previous games. However, I also suspect there will be new elements that do improve on the originals and look forward to discussing and exploring them when more information is known.
Goldmoon Dawn on 13/5/2012 at 22:57
For me, the problems all started with Ultima ironically enough. Ultima *was* always a top down view game. All of the outside terrain and towns were in isometric view, 3rd person, whatever you want to call it. For some reason though Garriott decided that the "underworld" aka the dungeons of the game should be in wireframe 1st person view. Two notable rpgs sprang from the depths of the underworld. Wizardry and Might and Magic. They obviously saw the beauty of 1st person because they used it for their entire games. Walking through virtual towns in 1st person view for the first time ever. And the fans were very pleased. Though Garriott refused to convert to 1st person, he did answer with the Underworld games and instead embarked upon a years long multi-game period where he attempted to put as much detail as possible into his isometric view games. This was Ultimas great demise, for by the time you get to Ultima:VIII Pagan the series almost appears comical as all aspects of the originals were absent. Instead, the Avatar leads an action platforming game with overly detailed environments. The gameplay and story were completely lost to the folly of "carefully crafted environments". Thus ended the 2d era. When 3d technology was first arriving you had Thief, who got it right the first time. 3d tech should be as simple as possible. If it doesnt naturally flow, the whole atmosphere is shot. From what I have seen of the entry and movement of the 3d era, it appears to be a repeat of Garriotts folly. Trying to get the graphics and "cinema" to be as real as possible in place of crafting a classic story with epic repeatable gameplay.
jtr7 on 13/5/2012 at 23:53
Quote Posted by Al_B
That probably explains the difficulty I have in coming to terms with your point of view. For me, gaming wasn't in the doldrums for a decade before Thief. Even excluding other Origin titles such as U7, the Underworlds, System Shock 1 and Wing Commander this was the decade that saw X-Wing, Civilization, Command & Conquer, X-Com, Doom and related sequels and spin-offs. None of them may have been of interest to you, but in many ways these were just some of the titles pushed things forward and they were immensely enjoyable in their own way.
Things are similar today and there'll be people in ten years time getting misty-eyed over the sort of experiences that they had in minecraft, Left 4 Dead or the Binding of Isaac. If you don't find enjoyment in games these days then it's quite possibly due to your personal feelings rather than due to the industry as a whole.
I'll be honest - I actually thought that the original Thief when it came out was a little disappointing. Compared to some of LGS's previous games, things had been stripped out, gameplay was a lot more linear and it took a while to cope with some gameplay aspects (e.g. zombies). However, once I got over that mental hurdle and started to enjoy the game my attitude changed. I suspect it will be the same with Thief 4 with things that disappoint and annoy compared to the previous games. However, I also suspect there will be new elements that do improve on the originals and look forward to discussing and exploring them when more information is known.
Yeah, in general, the happy gamerminds aren't fraught with certain categories of built-in hurdles in other minds, and don't see the problem for themselves, often to the point of taking it for granted. There are elements of all the games that are disappointing, but the key thing is that what had been frustrating me or boring me before Thief in gaming, isn't in old Thief, or is, but is circumventable, while TDS packed the new frustrations in. My greatest enjoyment of TDS has been outside the gameplay. Admiring admirable or wonderful components isn't the issue at all. If T4 was 99% great, in my own opinion, where I can agree it's great and heap praise on it, but 1% is something
toxic to my enjoyment, I won't be able to play it as a game, but will have to break it down and separate parts, never
I will continue to rail against the
toxic and the boring as long as people continue to think it's all only a preference or attitude thing or something that will grow on me over time. The things which I utterly despise in gaming are the toxic things, the things that no attitude will ever make accessible, but the reinforcement of concerning life-affecting emotion comes from people who are delivering the toxic to me and imposing it, rather than letting me have a toxin-free experience. The things that actually have anything to do with preference and attitude are merely boring as hell. I hate the boredom. It's emotion from lack of positive stimulation by the element. It can be adjusted by attitude, but there has to be a worthwhile point, and making publishers rich isn't. The attitude regarding the toxic stuff is a secondary effect from continuous reminders of the insurmountable obstacle, but gets red hot when reminders become imposition and force-feeding, like sneaking a peanut in food out of disbelief that the mere presence of a little ol' peanut in the mouth can harm someone. The anger from the issues arising from the toxic stuff is being--not blurred--but wholly lumped into contextual malleable attitudes. The regurgitation on the boards of a "Try it you'll grow to like it" happy gamer/consumerist attempt at attitude correction is naive on one hand and arrogant on the other. Arrogant because the naivete will not give way to the facts of the matter.
The fact that my attitude is ever-perceived as the cause rather than the effect is seriously unhelpful, and it's not going to go away, but here I am explaining it again, 'cause I care what T4 is going to bring. Certain game design choices are literally incompatible with my mind and/or body, outside of how I feel about it or look at it. These cannot be helped without miraculous science, unforeseeably beneficial head-trauma, etc. Those toxic elements don't exist in old Thief gameplay for the most part. There are missions that are a bit too much, but there are great chunks of those missions that I love. TDS was a toxic game, and the Thief of it I enjoy cannot be accessed in-game without going through the toxic. The forums are full of anecdotes regarding toxic elements in all the games discussed, which need to be separated from those things that are just attitude.
No amount of genuine or forced appreciation can overcome genetic obstacles alone. Hating the toxic incompatibility is not at all equatable with lacking of appreciation of the non-toxic, but try and tell that to the Internet. Even the smartest people here can't overcome that fallacy. Thus, I will have attitude. Hating what I cannot overcome is increased by people enforcing the presence of the toxic and calling out for more, but especially while showing apathy or distaste for the healthy stuff I love.
Fafhrd on 14/5/2012 at 06:54
Quote Posted by Koki
I think it's safe to bury the game. Even if it isn't vapourware, such an insanely long development time can mean only one thing: development hell, so the game will be weird at best, and complete garbage at worst.
It's been in development for 3 years. That's not an insanely long time. Generally, when a game is announced it's been in development for a year or more, and has another 12-18 months until its released. Thief 4 was announced right when the studio was formed and the only asset they had was the Thi4f logo that everybody hates.
Dia on 14/5/2012 at 13:48
Blast my poor memory, but wasn't TDS in development for at least 3 years before it was released (I thought it was closer to 4)? And, not to start another 'Why I Hated TDS' war, I was seriously disappointed with TDS and was left scratching my head, wondering that 'It took them all this time to produce this crap?'. So I'm tending to share the apprehension of those taffers who're rather anxious about what the long (it is to me, at least) development time may bode. That and the rapid and frequent turnover of devs, etc., at EM do have me a tad concerned.
Renault on 14/5/2012 at 14:02
Keep in mind, it's been 3 years, but that's to this point in time. Do you see this game coming out this year? Next year? Most games 3 years into development have a little more information available, interviews with key people, presentations at various trade shows, and some of the marketing effort/hype machine has begun. There's none of that. This game seems to be a long ways from release.
I'm all for not rushing a game out the door, but my gut tells me they're having issues, and evidenced by some of the staff turnover. That's seems to be the growing perception around here, and if that's true, it's up to EM to dispel the misinformation. I think when a game get into it's 4th or 5th year of dev and there's almost no info on it, the word "vaporware" will start to creep into conversations.
ZylonBane on 14/5/2012 at 14:36
Poll missing the "It will be a couch gamer suckfest, so I just don't care anymore" option.
Also, looks like jtr's gone off his meds.
