Renault on 31/5/2012 at 20:14
I'd agree though that any talk about getting rid of the blackjack is crazy, it's way too core to Thief gameplay to just be done with it. Instead, for balance, maybe make it a little more difficult to use, by randomizing/increasing AI patrols, making bodies tougher to hide, or by minimizing the conditions where a knockout would work. Just don't make it as hard as it is in TDM.
I can however see removing it on higher difficulty levels, at least this way you give the player options.
Neb on 31/5/2012 at 20:53
We have all mastered the nuances of Thief to the point that I wouldn't trust the judgement of any of us asking for a core feature to be removed. :p
ZylonBane on 31/5/2012 at 22:30
Quote Posted by Boxsmith
Play without it and tell me it's not more fun, ZB.
Almost everyone has played without it, freshmeat. It's called "ghosting", and it's fun when it's OPTIONAL. Seriously proposing to remove the single most-used tool from the game is frankly idiotic.
Thirith on 1/6/2012 at 09:39
Can anyone give a *good* reason why this can't just be left up to the individual player? Obviously having the blackjack in the game didn't keep some people from playing without ever using it. Or are those who went blackjack-less the lucky few who have superhuman self-control?
jay pettitt on 1/6/2012 at 11:34
If first time through a game when it's all new and mysterious is the best, then expecting player to know in advance that the tool attributed to button 1 is actually a crutch for avoiding most of the game-play on offer and that they might have more fun not using it is kinda, well, wishful thinking.
That's not to say that I think the blackjack is a bad thing. If you're crippled with the various limitations that come with tech, game design, controllers and all that then a crutch can be a damn good idea.
ZylonBane on 1/6/2012 at 14:49
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
That's not to say that I think the blackjack is a bad thing. If you're crippled with the various limitations that come with tech, game design, controllers and all that then a crutch can be a damn good idea.
And then there are the times that crutches give us quick-time events and third-person cover.
jay pettitt on 1/6/2012 at 15:51
Also damn good ideas. A million other games can't be wrong ;)
scumble on 1/6/2012 at 16:53
As a perfectly happy user of the blackjack I would be a tad peeved if it were to disappear. In my world of immersion it makes more sense for Garrett to be carrying around one small useful tool than a bow and a stack of arrows. In fact, water arrows seem to be a particularly unconvincing thing on reflection - how does the arrow part disappear with a "sploosh" instead of clattering about making an awful noise.
But ah yes, it's a computer game and none of this matters if you aren't having any fun...
Boxsmith on 29/5/2012 at 07:31
One thing I'd really like to see removed is the blackjack. There's a thing that I recall Harvey Smith saying about Invisible War: people saw IW as a game about crawling around in vents because that was always the most efficient route. In a game with a heavy focus on resource management, people will be less interested in doing things the fun way and more interested in the least wasteful approach. Vents were often basically free, and so that's where everyone spent their time.
That's the problem with the blackjack. You could use all the fun tools you've got -- the gas arrows, the noisemakers, the flashbombs, mines, potions and orbs -- but there is very little that can't be accomplished with a liberal application of head trauma. The result is that the game could be about trickery and cleverly exploiting your resources, but instead it's about hitting people on the head a lot. Ever since I stopped using the blackjack, Thief has been way more fun, and I found myself using (and even prizing) the gadgets other people deemed useless.
Dia on 30/5/2012 at 12:12
Quote Posted by Boxsmith
That's the problem with the blackjack. You
could use all the fun tools you've got -- the gas arrows, the noisemakers, the flashbombs, mines, potions and orbs -- but there is very little that can't be accomplished with a liberal application of head trauma. The result is that the game
could be about trickery and cleverly exploiting your resources, but instead it's about hitting people on the head a lot. Ever since I stopped using the blackjack, Thief has been way more fun, and I found myself using (and even prizing) the gadgets other people deemed useless.
Imo, the blackjack has always been an alternative to outright killing of other AI and I'd be lost without it (no frakkin' hammer substitutes, please). As far as the other tools are concerned, they're not easily found and/or can be expensive to buy, so the blackjack is a reasonable alternative imo. Also, it takes some skill to be able to sneak up on the AI in order to whack 'em over the head, as opposed to just shooting a gas arrow in their face. Ah well, each to their own.
