Briareos H on 30/5/2012 at 13:02
@Boxsmith:
Don't forget that player choices which are not enforced by the game are integral to the immersive sim games developed by Looking Glass Studios. I remember vividly how much fun I had bumping every other guard and civilian with the blackjack in my second ever playthrough of Thief because it changed the game radically. I decided willingly to not use it later on and rely on other tools, and here was yet another game. Also, some can enjoy all playstyles, but there are many who do not appreciate forced ghosting at all.
Still, I'd take complete removal of the blackjack any day over DX:HR-style takedowns.
Boxsmith on 31/5/2012 at 09:08
Quote Posted by Dia
Imo, the blackjack has always been an alternative to outright killing of other AI and I'd be lost without it (no frakkin' hammer substitutes, please). As far as the other tools are concerned, they're not easily found and/or can be expensive to buy, so the blackjack is a reasonable alternative imo. Also, it takes some skill to be able to sneak up on the AI in order to whack 'em over the head, as opposed to just shooting a gas arrow in their face. Ah well, each to their own.
Honestly, it really doesn't. At most it takes some patience. I don't remember once finding it difficult to KO with the blackjack; however, I do remember feeling immensely rewarded by luring a group of guards to one spot with a noisemaker, then taking them out with a well-placed gas arrow. Yes it's easier to shoot the one guard with a gas arrow, but gas arrows aren't infinite or free. Stealth games are about evasion, so confrontation should be messy or expensive IMO. Every time you want to simplify the situation, you should have to weigh the pros and cons and evaluate where and how your resources are best spent.
Free knockouts can still be possible, I think. They should just require some ingenuity to accomplish. As it stands, the blackjack can be fun, but mostly it just breaks the game.
Dia on 31/5/2012 at 13:00
Quote Posted by Boxsmith
Honestly, it really doesn't. At most it takes some patience. I don't remember once finding it difficult to KO with the blackjack;
Guess I should've clarified that it depends on the alertness level of the AI. I've played some FMs wherein it was seriously difficult to sneak up on anyone. And I loved it. Sneaking through available shadows has less to do with patience and more to do with timing and skill (are you really going to run pell-mell over metal floors to that next shadow before that guard turns around or are you going to try to find another way?).
Quote Posted by Boxsmith
Free knockouts can still be possible, I think. They should just require some ingenuity to accomplish. As it stands, the blackjack can be fun, but mostly it just breaks the game.
I disagree. I think the blackjack is still integral to the Thiefworld and much prefer it to the other weapons in Garrett's arsenal. Sure, it may get boring if that's the only weapon you use, but it has distinct advantages over Garrett's other weapons imo. The great thing about the Thief games is that you have the
choice of using or not using weapons or even ghosting the entire game. I hope the devs provide that choice in T4.
Beleg Cúthalion on 31/5/2012 at 15:38
Quote Posted by Dia
I think the blackjack is still integral to the Thiefworld and much prefer it to the other weapons in Garrett's arsenal. Sure, it may get boring if that's the only weapon you use, but it has distinct advantages over Garrett's other weapons imo.
Yeah, like solving everything easily while still upholding the illusion of being stealthy. :p
Seriously, as much as we all like the blackjack, it definitely
is a one-button-solves-all tool, at least the way it is implemented in the original games (TDS was harder in that respect). The old idea of foes waking up later might indeed be one way to balance this.
Boxsmith on 31/5/2012 at 20:08
Play without it and tell me it's not more fun, ZB.
Or, you know, just post more dismissive pictures. Maybe a nice frog gif.
heywood on 1/6/2012 at 05:42
Keep the blackjack, but make it less powerful and harder to use. The blackjack created the same balancing issue in Thief as non-lethal takedowns in DX:HR. Because it's powerful, easy to use, and doesn't cost any resources, the temptation is to clear levels by repetitively stalking & blackjacking each humanoid one by one.
Tomi on 1/6/2012 at 19:26
Quote Posted by Thirith
Can anyone give a *good* reason why this can't just be left up to the individual player? Obviously having the blackjack in the game didn't keep some people from playing without ever using it. Or are those who went blackjack-less the lucky few who have superhuman self-control?
I think that it's always a bad thing when the player has to make their own rules or some artificial restrictions to make the game challenging. It would be a different thing if the game rewarded the player somehow for not knocking out the guards, but at least I can see no good reason
not to use the blackjack when the game gives me one.
While I find the blackjack a bit too "overpowered" (the flashbomb + blackjack combo is just ridiculous :p), I still think that Thief wouldn't be Thief without it. But I do hope that they change how things work in Thief 4, they should make knocking out itself more difficult, and also improve the guard AI and how they react when their fellow guards suddenly go missing... Also, I'd like it if the blackjack wasn't the best tool to use in just about every situation, it'd be nice if you actually had to use the other tools and gadgets every now and then too.
About knocked out guards waking up... I don't think that it's a good idea, but perhaps patrolling guards could revive their knocked out colleagues if they come across one?
SubJeff on 2/6/2012 at 09:32
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Almost everyone has played without it, freshmeat. It's called "ghosting", and it's fun when it's OPTIONAL. Seriously proposing to remove the single most-used tool from the game is frankly idiotic.
QFT
Jesus Christ. Is this the most misguided idea ever?
jay pettitt on 2/6/2012 at 10:11
Perhaps, but I think it's an interesting misguided idea.
