The Shroud on 22/11/2009 at 06:59
Actually one thing I really would like to see (not necessarily in Thief 4, but someday) would be a sort of Thief prequel - set immediately after Garrett leaves the Keepers as a young man, and begins his thieving career. You'd basically be starting from scratch (no master thief's arsenal at your disposal) and working your way up. I imagine it as being something like this:
First mission (training):
* Starting from the tavern you're staying at, head through the city to the locksmith's shop marked on your map.
* Break into the locksmith's shop.
* Steal some lock-picking tools and notes on how to use them.
* While you're about town and in the shop, steal at least 50 gold.
* Don't get caught.
* Don't kill anyone.
* When you have what you came for, get back to your room at the tavern.
Equipment: Blackjack, dagger
The next mission could be robbing from the wealthier homes of Hightowne - using the thieves' highway to sneak into the top floors of people's houses (as in Life of the Party), collect enough gold/jewelery to meet your loot objective, and make your way back to your apartment in South Quarter (which you rented with the cash from the first mission). In this mission, you'd have your blackjack, dagger, lock-picks, and (if you could afford it with any cash leftover from the first mission) maybe a tip from a friend about where you can find the most loot.
By the third mission, you'd be ready for your first major job - breaking into a noble's castle or mansion to steal some valuable piece. With the loot you grabbed from the previous mission, you could afford a decent bow, arrows, a rope with grappling hook, and several homemade water-arrows (the money conceivably would go toward the crystal-molds and arrow-shafts). And of course you'd have your trusty blackjack, dagger, lock-picks, a compass, and (if you had enough money leftover) a map sketched by one of the house-servants you bribed.
And so on. As you progressed through the game and acquired more cash, you'd be able to afford better and more varied equipment (rope/grappler arrows, noisemaker arrows, flash-bombs, smoke bombs, caltrops, or whatever), which would allow you to take on bigger and better jobs. By roughly the time of the fifth mission or so, the main plot would get moving and take over. I imagine it could have something to do with the City Wardens - forces competing for control over the city via organized crime. Lots of clandestine schemes, coups for leadership, twisted plots, etc, etc. And all the while your "Keeper friends" would be leaving the occasional glyph warnings and cryptic tips/information to help steer you in the right direction. Rather than a climactic battle against the Forces of Evil, it'd be about curbing the city's deep-rooted corruption and preventing a total takeover by none other than your very own ilk - criminals.
Sharga on 22/11/2009 at 07:43
The Shroud: That may be the best idea I've heard yet! I've always wanted to know what happened between Garrett leaving the Keepers and him becoming Mr. Badass Thief, which is what I feel like he starts out as in TDP, whether or not that's what they really intended in the game. How does the guy actually hit his stride in the thievery profession? Heck, the game could begin with you having to actually sneak out of the keeper compound undetected and then maybe you are discovered just as you're about to leave and you have this really intense character-building conversation with the head keeper. And they could weave some original characters into the story like Basso, Victoria, Cutty, Benny, Lord Bafford, etc. This would also make the game more accessible to new players who are as-yet unfamiliar with the Thief universe. I feel like prequels have a lot of potential for awesomeness (think Batman Begins and Casino Royale, and for the love of all that is good please let's just agree to forget all about the atrocity that was Star Wars).
I really like where you're going with this. Thief, in it's purest form, back when the Hammers were still top-dog, back before all that pagan/mechanist/keeper insanity threatened the city.
In fact, if they adopt that storyline I think they should call it The Shrouded Path, in your honor. :D
jtr7 on 22/11/2009 at 07:59
It would be awesome to play as a thief with few connections, no lockpicking skills or lockpicks, with Wardens and the Thieves' Guild in control again, with more anger than ever, and Keepers like Artemus more urgently seeking to bring him back, meeting Basso for the first time and relying on him for the lockpicking and safecracking, seeing Basso's sister, meeting Cutty, having no mechanical eye, less gear overall (in Acts I & II), no apocalyptic plans, much less knowledge of the Pagans overall, no alliances at all with either faction against a common foe, and so on. And much less skilled than when he takes the Bafford job and has Ramirez demanding he join him and pay him a cut.
He didn't sneak out, he proclaimed his choice to leave and did not partake of the graduation ceremony to become a Keeper. Caduca and the Glyphs saved his life.
Excerpt from
SM3aboutgarrett:Quote:
The Matter of Garrett
By Keeper Draco
Familiarizing yourself with Garrett's history and capabilities could prove essential should the time come when we no longer deem him necessary. Garrett studied with us until his early twenties at which time he was offered the chance to proceed with the Indoctrination Ceremony and become a Keeper. However, he lacked balance and instead expressed his intention to leave. The council voted we deal with him using the Enforcers, until Caduca informed us that Garrett was essential to overcoming difficult times ahead. And so our most promising acolyte left us.
Garrett pursued the life of a criminal, and with the Keeper training we had given him, he quickly became a master thief.
Quote:
...the meeting devolved into chaotic debate as the Brothers sought to arrive at a consensus:
"rejected full initiation just prior to the ceremony"
"accused the Brotherhood of error, of hesitating to make use of our knowledge"
"proclaimed he 'could not stomach' the path we have chosen..."
"thief!"
"nevertheless, he still possessed the acolyte's training he received at our hands, and thus understood the glyphs which remained"
-- should keep a watch on him for signs of future talent and possible reabsorption
Eigenface on 22/11/2009 at 08:08
I'm struggling to come up with some good themes for the plot. Thief has always had good themes - order versus chaos, fascism versus freedom, self-determination versus destiny, rich versus poor, and balance between opposing powers versus totalitarianism, to name a few.
In my mind, Thief 1 is basically Garrett against the forces of chaos, and Thief 2 is Garrett against the forces of order. When one side gets too strong and threatens the well-being of everyone, the Keepers prod Garrett into restoring balance. Thief 3 is Garrett against the very forces of balance he's been working for. The organization that manipulates things behind the scenes turns out to be just as corruptible and dangerous to the greater good as anything else. So my problem is, I'm out of "sides" - Garrett already beat chaos, order, and balance.
As I see it, the Thief universe is all set up around making the criminal seem like the good guy, so the player won't feel bad about it. Thief's answer to chaos, the wild, and nature is the trickster and all the slaughter and destruction he causes. Thief's answer to order, progress, and technology are the Hammerites/Mechanists, and all their fanaticism and oppression. The rich make slaves out of the poor, and the government is some kind of Orwellian nightmare, so you've got every right to fight the system. You sneak into people's houses and read the dirty secrets of their sordid little lives, so when you take their money, you feel like they deserved it. You can steal from anyone without remorse, because everyone is evil in their own way.
Which brings me back to balance. If everyone is evil, there is no good side to fight for. However, a lot of little evils pulling in different directions is better than one big evil controlling everything. So the best Garrett can do is play the different sides against each other and make sure none of them get too powerful. Yep, this paints a pretty depressing picture of the world.
I'm having trouble coming up with additional themes along this same vein. This is partly because I'm not completely behind the Thief picture of the world. I don't think everyone is evil, and I think there are good sides to get behind. I may sound like a prude for saying this, but sometimes I want Thief 4 to have a more positive theme - I want to see how something good can happen in the Thief world.
The first mission of the FM pack "A Keeper of the Prophecies" has a clever theme in the same vein as the original games. Garrett learns that what he really wants is not wealth but freedom to do as he pleases; freedom from oppression, obligations, the need to work (or steal and take risks) in order to get money, etc. He learns the true nature of wealth is not freedom - the true nature of wealth is to dominate and exploit others. Those at the top of the economic hierarchy are necessarily evil, and not actually free themselves. Yep, clever, maybe even true, but very dire. And how does one become truly free? Who knows.
Maybe that would be a good, positive theme for Thief 4: how to be free. I'll have to think about this some more.
jtr7 on 22/11/2009 at 08:38
You summed up precisely where I hope Thief 4 goes. Garrett wanted freedom to live his own life as he saw fit. He was never so scared as when he lost all his freedom and thought it was all over. Garrett destroyed, one after the other, people and groups who sought to take his freedom, and the end of the trilogy has him finally destroying the group he was never able to shake off his back, and their motives and means of dogging him. He finally got his wish.
Be careful what you wish for, though.
T-Smith on 22/11/2009 at 08:55
Freedom is an interesting topic. Freed of the Keepers, and with his new "apprentice" Garrett could gain power beyond what he ever dreamed.
That said, I'd truely love to see a story that delves into the backstory of The City. I'm really not interested in the time between Garrett's leave from the Keepers and The Dark Project. I'm more interested in The City - it's secrets and the future. The Baron has been out to war with a neighboring state for some time hasn't he?
If he lost and The City was taken over by a foreign power - that could create an interesting scenario. Without the old Keeper order, the future of The City would be placed on Garrett's shoulders. The idea also allows for the introduction of all new enemies, technologies, and plot lines. Everything Garrett has faced has been familiar in some way. Drunken pub talk, Keeper lore, ancient stories. To introduce a villain he has no knowledge could prove to be challenging.
Namdrol on 22/11/2009 at 09:35
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Actually one thing I really would like to see (not necessarily in Thief 4, but someday) would be a sort of Thief prequel - set immediately after Garrett leaves the Keepers as a young man, and begins his thieving career.
Definitely, really good idea, so much scope and possibilities.
jtr7 on 22/11/2009 at 09:59
Apprentice?
If the exceptional Garrett was trained for nearly a decade with books that no longer exist, instructions that no longer exist, in a compound that is completely exposed for The City to see, with no structure, no leadership, and with Garrett still as a man who loathes Glyphs, who said nothing of any recruitment, who cared not to asked the girl her name, who did his primary job as One True Keeper by forcing Balance upon the corrupt Keepers--corrupted over the centuries through Gamall's hiding of texts that now no longer exist, and eliminating probing Keepers who got too close--with an Order the Glyphs said will now perish, cast out into a wordless future, with no more Scribes to build a new future...
How the hell will there be any powerful apprenticeship, and what are these powers assumed to exist? Are you seriously saying Garrett gets magic powers now? The Mark on his hand is not a Glyph. A return of any dead personage or concept is cheap writing. No resurrections, no power-ups, no patronly mentorship, no taking care of another human being at the expense of everything he's always wanted. She showed no exceptional ability, seeing a man in the middle of the street, illuminated by streetlamps. Garrett never had the Keeper ability to be unseen in broad daylight. With Glyphs utterly absent from The City--else the ancient Keepers, the Glyph Prophecies, the FINAL Glyph, the LAST of ALL Glyphs, the bleak unwritten, the Third Dark Age, the "crippled" hands of the ex-Keepers, all mean squat--there is no new Keeper Order. The City is now Balanced. All three Factions are now Balanced. As it should be, as it was written. Move on.
Eigenface on 22/11/2009 at 12:01
I assumed the Baron was a mythical figurehead like Big Brother from the book 1984. The City is at war with Eurasia, the City has always been at war with Eurasia...
I like the idea of bringing in some new blood with a foreign conqueror, but it would still need some strong themes or else it would end up being Garrett Goes To Miami, except in this case, Miami comes to Garrett.
Bakerman on 22/11/2009 at 12:02
Quote Posted by jtr7
Garrett destroyed, one after the other, people and groups who sought to take his freedom, and the end of the trilogy has him finally destroying the group he was never able to shake off his back, and their motives and means of dogging him. He finally got his wish.
Be careful what you wish for, though.
So what if T4 sees Garrett become more powerful than he ever wanted to be? Instead of the picked-on, oppressed, and pursued Garrett, what if the absence of the authorities that Garrett destroyed leaves him to fill the gap? He becomes the unintended lord of the City's underworld, and by extension, its overworld. I'd imagine Garrett would love the power at first, being the name feared by all nobles, being the one and only entry on the wanted list but with the Watch too scared to 'visit' his apartment. But I don't think power is what Garrett wants either, and I wouldn't imagine he'd enjoy that state of affairs for too long.
I sense a 'with great power, great responsibility' coming on...
Actually, I wouldn't go down that route, because I wouldn't want Garrett to keep his power. But I can't see any conceivable route to follow that story, so I'll let older and wiser heads have a go at my little stimulus.
