The Shroud on 22/11/2009 at 13:53
Quote Posted by Sharga
And they could weave some original characters into the story like Basso
Yes!
Quote Posted by Sharga
Victoria
Eh, including Viktoria wouldn't make much sense, since it's pretty clear that her appearance in TDP was the first Garrett had ever seen of her: "I was contacted by
a woman named Viktoria." Having Viktoria play a role in Garrett's past would be sort of like the tv series
Smallville's fabrication of a backstory for Lex Luthor, making young Lex a good friend of young Clark Kent. So I'd have to say no on this one. ;)
Quote Posted by Sharga
Cutty
Yes.
Quote Posted by Sharga
Benny
Hehe, it's funny that Benny is conceived of as the ever-present drunk guard, when in fact he only actually appeared in TMA's "Blackmail". He himself is not an important character, but the generic "dumb guard" with Stephen Russell's voice, definitely - has to be there.
Quote Posted by Sharga
Lord Bafford
Bafford is another example of someone who should probably stay in TDP. To Garrett, at the time of TDP, Bafford is just "another fat nobleman". If Bafford had any sort of importance or relevance to Garrett earlier on in Thief's backstory, Garrett would refer to him differently than he does. It's often all too tempting in a prequel (as well as in a sequel) to exaggerate the significance of existing characters who are really quite minor in the long run, and fabricate whole plots around them (take what George Lucas did with Boba Fett from the original Star Wars trilogy, for example). So again, I'd have to say no for Bafford.
But there are plenty of others who could be there, like Garrett's "contacts" and "associates". Dikket, for one (the friend of Garrett's who was once confined in Cragscleft). Issyt the Beggar, who presumably was friendly enough with Garrett for the thief to loan him his "lucky hand of glory" years later. Nammon (the thief who slipped his bonds in Cragscleft and escaped with half the contents of the evidence box, before later perishing). Felix would also be nice to see while he's still alive.
Perhaps the "infamous Adolpho" (mentioned in TDP's "Down In The Bonehoard") - who could maybe be one of Garrett's rivals back then. Imagine that - having to compete with another thief to steal something before
he does, both of you trying to outwit and sabotage each other throughout the mission, intentionally alerting guards at the most inopportune moments for one another, setting off alarms to foul up each other's thieving, each trying to set up the other to take the fall, and somehow make it out of the whole mess with the goods, without getting caught.
Quote Posted by Sharga
Thief, in it's purest form, back when the Hammers were still top-dog, back before all that pagan/mechanist/keeper insanity threatened the city.
Yes!
Quote Posted by Sharga
In fact, if they adopt that storyline I think they should call it The Shrouded Path, in your honor. :D
No! ;)
Quote Posted by jtr7
It would be awesome to play as a thief with few connections
Yes.
Quote Posted by jtr7
no lockpicking skills or lockpicks
Well, at least not in the very beginning - but Garrett would want to acquire these ASAP, so he could get into the real thieving.
Quote Posted by jtr7
with Wardens and the Thieves' Guild in control again, with more anger than ever, and Keepers like Artemus more urgently seeking to bring him back, meeting Basso for the first time
Yes.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and relying on him for the lockpicking and safecracking
There's no actual implication that Basso taught Garrett how to pick locks. I think in both TDP and TMA, the player starts without lock-picks for strictly gameplay reasons (although why the devs felt this postponing of lock-picking was necessary is beyond me). But Garrett strikes me as the sort of guy who's pretty much self-taught when it comes to things like picking locks.
For instance, when Garrett first purchases his lock-picks from Farkus' shop in "Assassins!" (long before Basso picked open a couple locks for him in Rumford's manor - which seems rather silly, given Garrett's adeptness with lock-picking during TDP), the picks come with "instructions" - which almost suggests this was the first time Garrett actually used lock-picks. But that would be pretty silly (a master thief who never had to pick a lock in his entire career until then?). It does go to show, however, that Garrett is the type who prefers to
teach himself the skills he needs in his line of work.
Quote Posted by jtr7
seeing Basso's sister, meeting Cutty, having no mechanical eye, less gear overall (in Acts I & II), no apocalyptic plans, much less knowledge of the Pagans overall, no alliances at all with either faction against a common foe, and so on. And much less skilled than when he takes the Bafford job and has Ramirez demanding he join him and pay him a cut.
Yes. A perfect excuse not to have him get away with standing in a shadow
right in front of someone or silhouetted against a bright background, and still be completely invisible.
Quote Posted by Eigenface
I'm struggling to come up with some good themes for the plot. Thief has always had good themes - order versus chaos, fascism versus freedom, self-determination versus destiny, rich versus poor, and balance between opposing powers versus totalitarianism, to name a few.
How about corruption versus prosperity?
Quote Posted by Eigenface
In my mind, Thief 1 is basically Garrett against the forces of chaos, and Thief 2 is Garrett against the forces of order. When one side gets too strong and threatens the well-being of everyone, the Keepers prod Garrett into restoring balance. Thief 3 is Garrett against the very forces of balance he's been working for. The organization that manipulates things behind the scenes turns out to be just as corruptible and dangerous to the greater good as anything else. So my problem is, I'm out of "sides" - Garrett already beat chaos, order, and balance.
As I see it, the Thief universe is all set up around making the criminal seem like the good guy, so the player won't feel bad about it. Thief's answer to chaos, the wild, and nature is the trickster and all the slaughter and destruction he causes. Thief's answer to order, progress, and technology are the Hammerites/Mechanists, and all their fanaticism and oppression. The rich make slaves out of the poor, and the government is some kind of Orwellian nightmare, so you've got every right to fight the system. You sneak into people's houses and read the dirty secrets of their sordid little lives, so when you take their money, you feel like they deserved it. You can steal from anyone without remorse, because everyone is evil in their own way.
Which brings me back to balance. If everyone is evil, there is no good side to fight for. However, a lot of little evils pulling in different directions is better than one big evil controlling everything. So the best Garrett can do is play the different sides against each other and make sure none of them get too powerful. Yep, this paints a pretty depressing picture of the world.
I'm having trouble coming up with additional themes along this same vein. This is partly because I'm not completely behind the Thief picture of the world. I don't think everyone is evil, and I think there are good sides to get behind. I may sound like a prude for saying this, but sometimes I want Thief 4 to have a more positive theme - I want to see how something
good can happen in the Thief world.
The City Wardens threaten to control the entire city through organized crime, replacing every honest and moral official with bought bureaucrats who serve only to cede more and more power to those with no interest in the public welfare, to the point of absolute system-failure and social collapse. Crime rules the streets, the extreme reverse of Truart's "New Age", citizens live in fear as the law loses its power to protect them. The greatest irony surfaces - to prevent the city's ruin and allow for his thieving career to continue, Garrett is forced to aid
the Law against his own kind - or there won't be anything left to steal from.
Sharga on 22/11/2009 at 18:43
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Eh, including Viktoria wouldn't make much sense...so I'd have to say no on this one. ;)
...
Bafford is another example of someone who should probably stay in TDP. To Garrett, at the time of TDP, Bafford is just "another fat nobleman". If Bafford had any sort of importance or relevance to Garrett earlier on in Thief's backstory, Garrett would refer to him differently than he does. It's often all too tempting in a prequel (as well as in a sequel) to exaggerate the significance of existing characters who are really quite minor in the long run, and fabricate whole plots around them (take what George Lucas did with Boba Fett from the original Star Wars trilogy, for example). So again, I'd have to say no for Bafford.
I'm in agreement with you here, and I probably should have been more specific. With some characters (like Victoria, Bafford, Ramirez, maybe even Karris) it wouldn't make sense to have them play major roles in Garrett's back-story, since he appears to be meeting them/hearing of them for the first time in TDP/TMA. Not to mention, it would likely feel very contrived. I was thinking more of a vague reference to them you might find in some scroll or cut-scene, something that new players would just skip over without understanding and it'd be more of a nod to the old-time fans.
On the other hand, it'd be great to learn more about other characters and their previous involvement with Garrett. The kind of people who it seems we only have a little information on but there's potential that they were involved in significant parts of Garrett's past. People like Cutty, Felix (that's the name of that store-owner who dies right?), Dikket, etc.
And I do like the Adolpho idea. After all, I don't remember any mention of who was "King Thief" before Garrett came on the scene. It'd be nice for him to face some serious rivalry starting out.
And of course it wouldn't hurt to have some new characters, maybe with smaller, less significant roles where it'd still be understandable why they were never mentioned in following portions of Garrett's timeline.
The Shroud on 22/11/2009 at 20:10
Quote Posted by Sharga
I was thinking more of a vague reference to them you might find in some scroll or cut-scene, something that new players would just skip over without understanding and it'd be more of a nod to the old-time fans.
Sure, I think that'd be fine.
Quote Posted by Sharga
Felix (that's the name of that store-owner who dies right?)
Actually, that was Farkus. Felix was the grave-robber who went after the Horn of Quintus and perished down in the Bonehoard.
Quote Posted by Sharga
And of course it wouldn't hurt to have some new characters, maybe with smaller, less significant roles where it'd still be understandable why they were never mentioned in following portions of Garrett's timeline.
I agree.
Eigenface on 23/11/2009 at 00:26
Quote Posted by "The Shroud"
The City Wardens threaten to control the entire city through organized crime, replacing every honest and moral official with bought bureaucrats who serve only to cede more and more power to those with no interest in the public welfare, to the point of absolute system-failure and social collapse. Crime rules the streets, the extreme reverse of Truart's "New Age", citizens live in fear as the law loses its power to protect them. The greatest irony surfaces - to prevent the city's ruin and allow for his thieving career to continue, Garrett is forced to aid the Law against his own kind - or there won't be anything left to steal from.
I like this a lot. It will force Garrett to reevaluate his career, and at the same time it will allow him to walk the streets without fear of the City Watch (like at the beginning of Thief 1), because now the patrolling enforcers are other thieves!
However, the government is really just the biggest gang in town, with a legal monopoly on violence and extortion because they make the laws. If another gang got bigger than the government, would they become the new government, and then start playing a role similar to the City Watch in order to protect the health of their cash cow herd?
The only problem with balancing opposing powers against each other is if war breaks out between them, innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Maybe Garrett will play the opposite role in Thief 4; he'll unbalance the different sides in order to usher in a regime change. Better to help the lesser of the evils become the new government than to let the constant infighting continue until there's nothing left to protect. Garrett will finally have to pick a side.
jtr7 on 23/11/2009 at 03:36
I'm still hoping to see corrupt Nobility, Barony, martial law, and to see the story of Azaran the Cruel, and the Necromancers that followed him to the sands of forgotten kings to retrieve the Book of Ash, the corrupt Hand Mages T2Gold was going to have. Two stories, back to back, as with the earlier titles, or two separate stories, one after the other.
The Shroud on 23/11/2009 at 04:07
Quote Posted by Eigenface
I like this a lot. It will force Garrett to reevaluate his career
Well, maybe not. I think Garrett is always going to enjoy thieving, but that doesn't mean he actually wants crime to rule the streets. The irony is his ability to make a living
depends somewhat on a reasonably balanced society - containing both lawful and criminal elements. It's not actually in his best interest to have crooks running everything because it's bad for business. If all crime in the city is organized, Garrett won't be able to find discreet fences to sell off the goods he steals anymore, and it's a lot harder to avoid the mob (who
run the black-market, information brokers, and everything else thieves like Garrett depend on day to day), than to run from the law. Garrett may be a criminal, but I think he would prefer the Hammerites in charge over the City Wardens any day. At least the Hammers he can somewhat handle. The Wardens will use his own resources against him - his informants, suppliers, and fences. Having them in charge would be an independent thief's worst nightmare.
Quote Posted by Eigenface
and at the same time it will allow him to walk the streets without fear of the City Watch (like at the beginning of Thief 1), because now the patrolling enforcers are other thieves!
Heh. Yes. But those are
worse than the City Watch because no one knows better how to catch a crook than other crooks.
Quote Posted by Eigenface
However, the government is really just the biggest gang in town, with a legal monopoly on violence and extortion because they make the laws. If another gang got bigger than the government, would they become the new government, and then start playing a role similar to the City Watch in order to protect the health of their cash cow herd?
That's just it - crime bosses like the Wardens don't give a damn about protecting citizens unless there's money involved. So the "government" would be transformed into a massive protection racket, employing leg-breakers and assassins to keep the populace in line. No one's really safe, because if they're expendable in any way, all bets are off. At least the Hammerites believe passionately in their own extreme form of "righteousness" - as long as citizens don't violate their tenets, the Hammers will protect them to a fault. But when crooks are running the show, anything from extortion to murder is permissible as long as it settles things.
Quote Posted by Eigenface
The only problem with balancing opposing powers against each other is if war breaks out between them, innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Maybe Garrett will play the opposite role in Thief 4; he'll unbalance the different sides in order to usher in a regime change. Better to help the lesser of the evils become the new government than to let the constant infighting continue until there's nothing left to protect. Garrett will finally have to pick a side.
Indeed. Maybe he could actually aid a coup within the mob houses (supplying information to help tip the scales in favor of the underdog) that would result in weaker, less well-organized leadership taking over and consequently initiate a regression back to a less formidable crime-ring that the Hammerites are more able to keep in check.
tihomir on 12/12/2009 at 19:53
hello folks!
i would like to be able to buy sleeping powder and put it in drinks and food, and AI on patrols could stop for drink, and.. one down, more to go!
i would like to be able to put mandragora toxin in water suply (sub-mission where i go to wellspring and do it, before that i have to buy it in some shop, or find it and steal it from herbalist), of some monastery, and when i infiltrate after that, initiates could be in 'mandragora trance' instead on patrol, and talk some halucinogenic religious stuff. hell yeah! raving Hammerites in trance, beliving that Builder has come :eek:
idea about time..
it would be nice to choose time of infiltration.
lets say, i can choose 21, 23, 01, 03 o'clock.
this could be very replayability friendly. time of infiltration could change stuff like: if later, more AI is sleeping, less is patroling, but more relics are locked, instead of placed on some altars. keys are stored on different locations and so on. it can go even further, that you can buy intel in city (or howerev the mission structure will be organized) and then learn special time habits of facility you are about to infiltrate.
there is something very cool about waiting the night to become very dark, and waiting for the lights on windows to go off.
i would like to have different characters of night. what i am trying to say, in previous games, there is always 'night'. but there is also dusk, midnight, total dark dead night..
and since i am at it, i would like to have a task of finding, infiltrating and stealing my own voodoo doll from the witch hut in the misty swamps :laff:
sorry for my english, not a native speaker.
regards!
p.s.
i dont care for logos and stuff, i just want that stalking-voayerish atmosphere and i like all 3 games, my favorite being the one that i play.
jtr7 on 13/12/2009 at 02:00
There already were daylight missions, dusk/dawn missions, 8:00 PM jobs, 10:00 PM jobs, and midnight jobs, and so on through the night. In TMA you can look at the time on the clocks, and the clocks are actually functional.
If they introduce poisons and sleeping chemicals to spike food and drink, the player is going to stand around and watch the show, meaning, the player won't be playing or advancing through the game, and if the player leaves the area, it won't matter unless the body is discovered. It could be a mission objective, but I wouldn't care to have it. It's not worth all the scripting, object-making, any extra animations and sounds, playtesting, etc., for what's more of an amusing show than a tactic. Gameplay-wise it would be redundant to the blackjack, gas weapons, and mines. It's an idea that sounds cool, but really adds nothing of worthwhile value to the game from mission to mission.
Choosing different times the way you describe sounds a lot like choosing difficulty levels, but with more than 3 or 4. Again, it's redundant and just adds to development time.
Telex on 13/12/2009 at 02:51
Initially I thought the idea of making T4 a prequel to TDP was a little dubious, but after reading the thoughts in this thread, I must say, that is by far the best idea plot-wise I have heard. There are so many opportunities for growth in this area - here's to hoping the devs put some serious thought into taking this approach!
Hewer on 13/12/2009 at 03:18
I realize the thread has taken it's own direction, but I got thinking about the OP:
Quote Posted by andycain
1) A game set in modern times but with a similar gamplay style. (Prehaps Garrett's descendent)
2) Ability to pick a 'side' at the begining of the game. Prehaps a faction driven storyline that you get to see one side of depending on the faction you choose at the begining. You have to play the game twice as each faction to fully understand the story. Lots of gameplay time. This could work by allowing players to progress through missions even if they fail objectives which influence the storyline.
3) Character can wear disguises to fool guards.
The first one, we have that bit of concept art for, and the other two were actually done in the games in a bit different form. In DS you got to choose whether to help the Hammers or the Pagans (or both), and as for the disguise, that's basically what you were doing in the mission where you're walking around the Hammer temple or whatever- I can't remember the name of the mission- but the one where they'll only attack you if they catch you doing something or going somewhere you shouldn't.
Just thought that was interesting.
