jtr7 on 13/12/2009 at 03:19
Undercover was the one where Garrett was disguised as a Hammerite Novice, with the bonus that Novices were not allowed to speak, so he wouldn't give himself away, because he had to be seen. There should not be more than one mission in Thief 4 where he is willingly seen, hiding in plain sight.
A prequel would be an entirely different game. There were no unbalanced factions at that time that Garrett had anything to do with. There would be no entanglement in dark schemes. He didn't have much skill lockpicking, and we'd have to have Basso doing a lot of that for us. He was not a master thief, yet, but was impressing his competition and gaining contacts. He was superstitious and worried about luck, carrying items to give him more luck, demonstrating his lack of confidence in his own skills at that time. Interesting backstory, but not a good Thief game at all. It would be a whole game like the first levels of Fallout 3, building up from basics, like just pickpocketing and hiding to eventually cleaning out a couple of mansions. I can't imagine what the major plot would be to carry it through a full game of about 15 missions, with three Acts. No Trickster, no Viktoria, little understanding of the Pagans, and very little Pagan presence, lots more Keeper trailing, dogging, nagging, and with greater urgency to persuade Garrett to return to the Compound and find his Balance, greater distrust, no major groups to fall after Garrett gets done with them... His lack of skills, gear, and mastery would mean less player-enjoyment I would think. His abilities would start out less than they were when taking on the Bafford job. He'd not see any surreal or alien environments, and none of his jobs or acts of vengeance could take any group in existence in trilogy down, so he could not undermine the Thieves' Guild and Wardens again, the City Watch again, the Hammerites, Pagans, or Keepers again...
tihomir on 13/12/2009 at 15:35
ambition is a bitch, wouldn't you agree? :laff:
jtr7 on 13/12/2009 at 22:01
The writer(s) need to be on top of their...uh...game. Audacious!
The Shroud on 14/12/2009 at 09:01
Quote Posted by jtr7
A prequel would be an entirely different game.
Not entirely.
Quote Posted by jtr7
There were no unbalanced factions at that time that Garrett had anything to do with.
You don't know that.
Quote Posted by jtr7
There would be no entanglement in dark schemes.
Or that.
Quote Posted by jtr7
He didn't have much skill lockpicking
Or that.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and we'd have to have Basso doing a lot of that for us.
You're inferring far too much from Running Interference. I realize that you played TMA before TDP, so it may seem more logical to you that Basso was Garrett's lock-picking tutor, but really, that's a hypothesis - not fact. No one really knows how Garrett picked up lock-picking skills. The absence of any concrete background information regarding the subject is not grounds for trumping up your personal hunches as facts.
Quote Posted by jtr7
He was not a master thief, yet, but was impressing his competition and gaining contacts.
This one's true, obviously.
Quote Posted by jtr7
He was superstitious and worried about luck, carrying items to give him more luck, demonstrating his lack of confidence in his own skills at that time.
Just because Garrett values his "Lucky Hand of Glory" and decided to drop a couple coins at the Watchman's Grave for luck doesn't mean he's automatically superstitious and lacking in confidence. Come on now. This is Garrett. If anything, he might have been a little
overconfident in his youth.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Interesting backstory, but not a good Thief game at all.
Says who? You?
Quote Posted by jtr7
It would be a whole game like the first levels of Fallout 3, building up from basics, like just pickpocketing and hiding to eventually cleaning out a couple of mansions.
It wouldn't have to be. That's just how you envision it - which, I agree, is not a good idea.
Quote Posted by jtr7
I can't imagine what the major plot would be to carry it through a full game of about 15 missions, with three Acts.
Be more imaginative then?
Quote Posted by jtr7
No Trickster, no Viktoria, little understanding of the Pagans, and very little Pagan presence, lots more Keeper trailing, dogging, nagging, and with greater urgency to persuade Garrett to return to the Compound and find his Balance, greater distrust, no major groups to fall after Garrett gets done with them...
...So what?
Quote Posted by jtr7
His lack of skills, gear, and mastery would mean less player-enjoyment I would think.
Hardly. Lack of "skills" (i.e. lenience toward player-errors) and gear means more reliance on intelligence, planning, and resourcefulness. In other words, more fulfilling gameplay than just breezing through missions with ease.
Quote Posted by jtr7
His abilities would start out less than they were when taking on the Bafford job.
True, and I'd argue that Garrett's "abilities" (like being invisible in situations where he really shouldn't be) are overpowered right now.
Quote Posted by jtr7
He'd not see any surreal or alien environments
In other words, a game set completely in The City. That sounds fine with me.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and none of his jobs or acts of vengeance could take any group in existence in trilogy down, so he could not undermine the Thieves' Guild and Wardens again, the City Watch again, the Hammerites, Pagans, or Keepers again...
Why would he have to take them "down"? Bringing balance doesn't have to mean eliminating, and balance isn't always permanent anyway. I brought up one possible plot idea earlier, and I have yet to see any problems with it.
Bakerman on 14/12/2009 at 12:56
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Hardly. Lack of "skills" (i.e. lenience toward player-errors) and gear means more reliance on intelligence, planning, and resourcefulness. In other words, more fulfilling gameplay than just breezing through missions with ease.
I was going to say that a prequel might focus more on the 'what happens when Garrett gets caught' side of things, rather than the stealthy master thief sort of business. Then the awful realisation of exactly what that would mean dawned on me...
tihomir on 14/12/2009 at 17:04
encounter idea..
didnt find it in any other game, at least not in the one i played so far.
lets say, mission 1 or 2, everything still looks normal in story, nothing strange has happened yet. you break into high class castle, everything is cool, and all of sudden, you see a strange figure standing in hallway, and it looks like it is looking at you.
from here on to the end of level, it follows you from safe distance, and if you approach, it starts to shreik loudly, or increase the distance.. kind of messenger of things to come.
what i am trying to say, we saw shadows running past the corner, ghosts chasing you, hints of menacing beasts and events, but i would like to see a spooky figure staring and me and following me. the menacing dark shadow without the face :wot:
i was waiting for that constantly in TDS, with all that hag and grey lady songs and stuff, but nothing happened.
also, i would like heavy fog like 19 century London in one mission with sound cues only to guide you, please. kind of invisible audio maze to go through. guards hunting you through fog, yelling, and you must avoid them intelligently.
Telex on 14/12/2009 at 19:29
Quote Posted by tihomir
what i am trying to say, we saw shadows running past the corner, ghosts chasing you, hints of menacing beasts and events, but i would like to see a spooky figure staring and me and following me. the menacing dark shadow without the face :wot:
i was waiting for that constantly in TDS, with all that hag and grey lady songs and stuff, but nothing happened.
Agreed. That was one thing I loved about TDS, just how atmospheric it was. It would have been even better if there was some sort of encounter like you said at some point. I don't know that such a figure should have actually followed the player though. I feel like that's only scary for a little bit, then it becomes something of a contrivance.
I would have been more in favor of something akin to the way G-Man appears in Half-Life - the devs put him in every so often, and it's often up to the player to find him themselves. They don't just put him directly in front of the camera and go "LOOK! G-MAN!". I would have liked something like this in TDS, not for the whole game, maybe we would have just seen the hag once, off in the distance. If they'd done it more than that, it would've gotten silly. G-Man can get away with being in a lot of the game because he's not supposed to be scary, he's just supposed to be ever-present, pulling all the strings.
So yeah, it would have been cool from an atmosphere standpoint, but I'm not so sure having something follow you like that would work gameplay-wise.
Quote Posted by tihomir
also, i would like heavy fog like 19 century London in one mission with sound cues only to guide you, please. kind of invisible audio maze to go through. guards hunting you through fog, yelling, and you must avoid them intelligently.
This could be cool, but it seems to be getting a little close to Silent Hill for my taste. Silent Hill is, incidentally one of my favorite games ever, but Thief is its own beast entirely =P
The Shroud on 14/12/2009 at 20:30
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I was going to say that a prequel might focus more on the 'what happens when Garrett gets caught' side of things, rather than the stealthy master thief sort of business. Then the awful realisation of exactly what that would mean dawned on me...
Hehe agreed.
Bakerman on 14/12/2009 at 23:51
Quote Posted by Telex
I don't know that such a figure should have actually followed the player though. I feel like that's only scary for a little bit, then it becomes something of a contrivance.
Totally agree. Once players realise that it's not a threat, it stops becoming scary in any way. All that would make it work in the first place is fear of the unknown - what is this strange thing and how can it ruin my day? How do I avoid it, how do I get rid of it? Once players figure out the mechanics behind how it works, then it's no longer an unknown, and they've got no reason to be scared of it.
JC_Denton on 15/12/2009 at 15:35
here's my idea: make it like Thief The Dark Project :D
