Thief 4 musings... - by EZ-52
Zillameth on 26/1/2010 at 21:57
Quote Posted by jtr7
We're mostly concerned with the dumbing-down that occurs to accommodate a simplified controller and a pre-HD/pre-Widescreen living room television set, as well as those things that cater to a younger audience more than they are helpful to a non-gamer, often condescending without necessarily intending to be so.
Last time I checked, hardly anyone cared about old TV set owners.
The gamepad has twelve regular buttons and two thumbsticks. I don't think Thief needs more for primary controls, although one of the reasons why I play on PC and not on console is that I feel more comfortable using broad interfaces (e.g. assigning a separate key to each arrow type).
Gamepad's three biggest shortcomings are the lack of proportional rotation control, the fact that most people only use four fingers when playing, and the inability to push some of the buttons without letting go of a thumbstick. All of these are fairly severe, but their impact is largely mitigated in a game where you don't need to hurry. In other words, these won't hurt Thief 4 if the guys at Eidos have two grey cells to rub together.
As for the younger audience - I wouldn't call a game for kids "dumb" just because it's for kids. It's a completely different design paradigm from dumbing a game down because someone couldn't be arsed to treat their design issues seriously. Of course, that doesn't mean I'd like Thief 4 to be a game for kids, because I'm not a kid anymore, so yes, I do share some of that anxiety.
However, there will always be some drama involved with each new game in the series taking it's own direction. It's all right not to like the (hypothetical) new direction, if it doesn't fit your taste, but it's not fair to blame game's authors for it. They have a taste of they own. They probably don't want to copy the orignal game verbatim; they want to create something they could call their own. People who don't accept it are going to end up disappointed.
By the way, the most condescending design choices in TDS that I can recall had most to do with user-friendliness rather than player age. That atomic blue frob indicator glow, and the glowing footprints in the tutorial, for example. Those are things you put in your game when you think your players are dumb. I think it was a deeper problem with Ion Storm's approach to design at the time. Deus Ex 2 had similar issues.
But if they really wanted to take the kiddie route, they would find some way to reintroduce Viktoria. She did walk naked in previous two games, after all, so here's your perfect excuse for showing some gratuitous cleavage. That, and they would make Garrett way more angsty (think Zaya of Thief2x).
jtr7 on 26/1/2010 at 22:36
Quote Posted by Zillameth
Last time I checked, hardly anyone cared about old TV set owners.
The gamepad has twelve regular buttons and two thumbsticks. I don't think Thief needs more for primary controls, although one of the reasons why I play on PC and not on console is that I feel more comfortable using broad interfaces (e.g. assigning a separate key to each arrow type).
Gamepad's three biggest shortcomings are the lack of proportional rotation control, the fact that most people only use four fingers when playing, and the inability to push some of the buttons without letting go of a thumbstick. All of these are fairly severe, but their impact is largely mitigated in a game where you don't need to hurry. In other words, these won't hurt Thief 4 if the guys at Eidos have two grey cells to rub together.
As for the younger audience - I wouldn't call a game for kids "dumb" just because it's for kids. It's a completely different design paradigm from dumbing a game down because someone couldn't be arsed to treat their design issues seriously. Of course, that doesn't mean I'd like Thief 4 to be a game for kids, because I'm not a kid anymore, so yes, I do share some of that anxiety.
However, there will always be some drama involved with each new game in the series taking it's own direction. It's all right not to like the (hypothetical) new direction, if it doesn't fit your taste, but it's not fair to blame game's authors for it. They have a taste of they own. They probably don't want to copy the orignal game verbatim; they want to create something they could call their own. People who don't accept it are going to end up disappointed.
By the way, the most condescending design choices in TDS that I can recall had most to do with user-friendliness rather than player age. That atomic blue frob indicator glow, and the glowing footprints in the tutorial, for example. Those are things you put in your game when you think your players are dumb. I think it was a deeper problem with Ion Storm's approach to design at the time. Deus Ex 2 had similar issues.
But if they really wanted to take the kiddie route, they would find some way to reintroduce Viktoria. She did walk naked in previous two games, after all, so here's your perfect excuse for showing some gratuitous cleavage. That, and they would make Garrett way more angsty (think Zaya of Thief2x).
Heh heh. Good ol' Zill! (Is it just me or have you been away for awhile?)
The kids aren't demanding respect, are they? They clamor for more fast-food garbage games full of everything that can be packed in with no regard for the price that's paid to do so, and they shell out the dough. The devs sure treat them that way, as you admit, and they do so repeatedly, and the kids don't argue, do they? And no, not ALL kids--sheesh. Just the ones making the companies nice profits. Not even the adults, or anyone who thinks that this is how games are and take it or leave it. They take whatever comes, give the companies money, and
then complain about what they don't like, instead of seeing the signs beforehand and voting against it by not buying and playing it, and telling the companies why. And those few that do abstain from buying it and tell the companies why are told they can't possibly know what they are talking about without playing the game. Yeah right.
Television sets: The exaggerated size and color and flashing of so many things. Isn't the living room television set the reason for that? I thought that was the common belief, and it makes perfect sense without knowing the inside decision for it.
Anyway, as long as gamers--whatever frikkin' age--keep celebrating mediocrity and buying games that condescend and flood the tv/monitor with disco lighting for most games, and actually slap hands and whoop about games that are buried under Fisher-Price color-coded flashes and bells and whistles and putting those crap visuals at the top of the list of things to look for, expect our ignorant opinions of those gamers and development decisions to continue.
Break it down, as an insider, and justify for us why we keep seeing this crap, and why it sells so well. By the way, of course not all games are like this! I'm not generalizing about all games, I'm talking about the specific pool of games that apply to these discussions. Any generalization comes from observations about this wedge of genres and sub-genres. Yeah, I'm often accused of over-generalizing, when it's the accusers who are including things I'm not even talking about, and making it look worse than it is to themselves. Gah!
And now we have DirectX 11 and Tessellation, which do what?--improve graphics. How many games are pushing to revolutionize sound--a critical
Thief achievement? And in spite of how neat the DX11 Tessellation is, and how it's finally here, texture artists, modelers, and especially animators, will still manage to either keep it overly-illuminated and colorful, but lifeless and stiff, too bumpy and lumpy and specular and melty-looking, without tangible grit and dryness and dust, and overly-detailed where it doesn't frikkin' matter, and dead and soulless where it does, and whatever it is in the industry that keeps that mediocrity going needs to be radically shifted into a new era, and if most of the companies do it together, they can invite the masses to appreciate the games beyond the superficial more. Either that or keep it dumb and palatable and easy with lots of pats on the back and hints and tips.
Zillameth on 27/1/2010 at 02:04
Quote Posted by jtr7
Heh heh. Good ol' Zill! (Is it just me or have you been away for awhile?
I've been lurking. I try not to read too much about T4. I also had a very stressful job in the last two years, and it was starting to show in my posts, so I thought I'd better take a break.
Quote Posted by jtr7
The kids aren't demanding respect, are they? They clamor for more fast-food garbage games full of everything that can be packed in with no regard for the price that's paid to do so, and they shell out the dough. The devs sure treat them that way, as you admit, and they do so repeatedly, and the kids don't argue, do they? And no, not ALL kids--sheesh. Just the ones making the companies nice profits. Not even the adults, or anyone who thinks that this is how games are and take it or leave it. They take whatever comes, give the companies money, and
then complain about what they don't like, instead of seeing the signs beforehand and voting against it by not buying and playing it, and telling the companies why. And those few that do abstain from buying it and tell the compaines why are told they can't possibly know what they are talking about without playing the game. Yeah right.
I guess this is the part where I should say something in defense of the industry at large, but I've just quit a job that fit your description quite well. So I'm fairly cynical about the topic myself.
One thing I absolutely must say, though, is that the industry is not some kind of uniform, evil entity, whose mind is set on making everyone dumber. The industry is, first and foremost, broken. It's inefficient. Its know-how is spotty. It has trouble keeping up with the changing market. A lot of bad decisions are made, but they're not made out of spite, or cynicism, or disrespect; they're usually caused by someone's incompetence and/or inertia.
In fact, those stupid games with lots of cleavage and angsty protagonists are usually created out of misguided sense of respect for the customer. Eroticism and internal turmoil are just two examples of things which are perfectly natural for teenagers and young adults of both genders. So game developers try to cater to those needs, only they're not very good at it. Sometimes the problem is as simple as not being able to find a decent writer.
That's why I'm not worried about the Eidos' goodwill. There's a very good chance they're good guys trying to make a good game. The real question is whether their development process and business model are good enough. Thief is founded on a very unique premise, and taking a generic approach would be a very bad idea.
Like I said before, I don't think releasing this game on consoles prevents them from creating a game you and me would enjoy. It can be pulled off. It's a technical challenge.
As for purchase decisions - well, let's make sure they release a demo, right? Also, normally, you would expect the gaming press to keep developers in check. But the gaming press is broken, too.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Television sets: The exaggerated size and color and flashing of so many things. Isn't the living room television set the reason for that? I thought that was the common belief, and it makes perfect sense without knowing the inside decision for it.
Console games are not designed to serve as an equivalent of home cinema. They're designed to be usable for one or two people who are sitting ca. five feet away from the screen and actually playing the game (that is: paying close attention). TV display used to enforce certain design choices, because it had very low resolution, and TV displays were generally smaller. This has changed.
I think Gears of War is a good example. It was a console game that got ported to PC. It could easily pass for a native PC game. The icons and in-game objects are the size you would normally expect from a PC game. Gear of War is also known for its cold, almost monochromatic palette.
An example of a design choice that may be mistaken for console influence (which it actually isn't) is the prevalence of what we know as the loot glint. I don't like it, personally, but the main reason behind it is that in-game environments have become very detailed, and it's been increasingly difficult to spot interactive objects against a noisy background.
A similar problem applies to character designs, for example. In old games, in low resolution, you could see a moving object from a mile away, just because it was moving. Today, spotting a moving object from a distance is just as difficult as it would be in real life. So game developers do the same thing you would do in real life - they dress characters like clowns in order to make them more visible.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Anyway, as long as gamers--whatever frikkin' age--keep celebrating mediocrity and buying games that condescend and flood the tv/monitor with disco lighting for most games, and actually slap hands and whoop about games that are buried under Fisher-Price color-coded flashes and bells and whistles and putting those crap visuals at the top of the list of things to look for, expect our ignorant opinions of those gamers and development decisions to continue.
Break it down, as an insider, and justify for us why we keep seeing this crap, and why it sells so well. By the way, of course not all games are like this! I'm not generalizing about all games, I'm talking about the specific pool of games that apply to these discussions. Any generalization comes from observations about this wedge of genres and sub-genres. Yeah, I'm often accused of over-generalizing, when it's the accusers who are including things I'm not even talking about, and making it look worse than it is to themselves. Gah!
Well, the short version is what I'm saying above - the industry is broken. I would rather not elaborate, because that would lead to a very, very, very long rant.
If it's of any consolation to you, there are lots of people who don't like it that way. This isn't an indutry that keeps people. A lot of veterans who made popular games back in the 80s and 90s are no longer in the industry - not in the mainstream, anyway - not because they couldn't find jobs, but because they were fed up.
Also, the stuff only seems to sell well. This is actually an extremely risky business. The success rate is much lower than in Hollywood.
There's a lot of interesting stuff happening in the indie scene right now. Indie games are small, they don't have a budget for advertising, and their "production values" are worse, but there's a lot of ingenuity in there, and a lot of purely artistic experimentation.
Myagi on 27/1/2010 at 16:29
Quote Posted by Zillameth
An example of a design choice that may be mistaken for console influence (which it actually isn't) is the prevalence of what we know as the loot glint. I don't like it, personally, but the main reason behind it is that in-game environments have become very detailed, and it's been increasingly difficult to spot interactive objects against a noisy background.
I for one played TDS with loot glints completely removed (not just toned down) and it worked fine. I don't buy the detail environment argument as the main reason. Even if so, one could make it less "dumb" by not showing the glints from such long distances, as that clearly is catering to the ADD-ish crowd. Anyway my personal preference on loot glints and arrow trails is not why I brought this up.
What I think is the real "crime" with stuff like that, and hopefully something EM could be aware of (which is why I'm bringing it up here), is that you should make it a bloody option. Unless the game designer has been living under a rock, they must know when adding such elements to the design, that it will be something that quite a few will hate with a passion. You can't make every little thing an option, but certain things are so clear cut made to have an option, and if those things obviously are going to be controversial then for pete's sake make it one, and do it from the start. If they're worth their job position, they should know that adding an option for that is very trivial (unless the engine is a complete suck-fest) if done by design from the start. (Don't let any coder tell you otherwise :p)
Sure actually adding a menu entry for it is a little more work, and maybe not desired in all cases, but by design right from the very start make a point to add an ini file option for those things. You can decide later to include it in menus, on all or some platforms. If the option isn't coded from the start it's a lot less likely to be added later. Use the id school of thought here, better to add a million of options (/console vars) even if not accessible within the game, so that you yourself can do cheap last minute changes based on feedback aswell as "advanced" gamers (at least on PC) have the possibility of fine tuning without resorting to exe and data file hacking.
[/rant]
ZergMasterBaiter on 27/1/2010 at 17:30
Quote Posted by Zillameth
Last time I checked, hardly anyone cared about old TV set owners.
But if they really wanted to take the kiddie route, they would find some way to reintroduce Viktoria. She did walk naked in previous two games, after all, so here's your perfect excuse for showing some gratuitous cleavage. That, and they would make Garrett way more angsty (think Zaya of Thief2x).
ROFL. I'm worried about that too. One of the things that I loved most about the series was Garrett's excellent voiceacting that suited his cynical personality. So if they go for a more edgy angsty approach, via Prince of Persia then I'll be one unhappy taffer :mad:. I was actually surprised when the aristocratic Prince was magically replaced by your typical "cool" American teen wanker archetype in the latest Prince of Persia game. We all know that the new Thi4f game is not primarily aimed at PC market, what last major game was? No it will be a multiplatform title, with particular focus on the xbox crowd who are ... :wot: big surprise:wot: ... primarily teenagers. Thus chances are Eidos will go for an edgier approach to show how they "get" their cool-starved teen gamers. So chances are we won't even get a chance to step back into Garrett's cynical shoes but rather will be forced to guide his 16-year old apprentice/adopted son or daughter (some spiky-haired Zaya type perhaps) or whatever other "edgy" character the developers might pull out of their totally edgy arsehat of original ideas. Or will he/she make us think "Italian pimp" as he'she flounces around the City's rooftop with his/her bright red cape flying in the wind? Its all possible with Eidos.
Also its very likely that they will try to reinvent the series for the younger fans, as Thi4f (such title is already a major sign of an edgy reboot) aka "Totally Original Edgy Reboot" by "borrowing" a lot from Assassin's Creed 2. We all know how successful that game has been so far so why not copy it. So I wouldn't be totally surprised if the game is going to be in 3rd person, with insanely large arsenal of medieval weaponry, special kill moves and new acrobatic system complete with wall-runs and suicidal dives that somehow turn into "totally cool!" dagger-first finishing moves mid-dive. Therefore, it will not be a Thief game at all. But I'll probably be proven wrong in the end right :ebil: ?
Storybuilder on 25/2/2010 at 10:33
All I ask is please, please, PLEASE don't set it in a modern-day environment. Keep the steampunk world with zombies and burricks and coal-fired robots and guards armed with swords and bows. If Thief 4 is a first-person Grand Theft Auto clone with Garrett dodging bullets and wearing a hoodie, then my wallet will stay firmly clamped shut.
Just sayin'.
-Storybuilder
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/2/2010 at 16:09
According to fan reports there are already atmospherical steampunky artworks over at EM to give you a positive answer. Sort of.
Petike the Taffer on 25/2/2010 at 17:28
Quote Posted by T-Smith
I think this can really just be boiled down to sound design in general. There's nothing wrong with new sound effects obviously. But from the first game to the third, there's some that have just carried on. The "Objective Complete" noise, like you mentioned, is just damned satisfying.
Yeah, I agree on this wholeheartedly. These are literally signature sounds of the series, so they should be kept just for sheer iconicity. :cool: A lot of other succesful
game series (Hitman comes to mind) have also kept a few distinct sound effects for years, and it generally helps add to the sense of continuity.
It's not like they number in the hundreds - there is only half a dozen or a maximum of 10 SFX, that have become
really associated with Thief's gameplay over the years.
Dia on 28/2/2010 at 02:38
Quote Posted by jtr7
Different game?
I would hope it would feel like home, in spite of all the unavoidable changes. Those sounds are just very well chosen and satisfying. I don't want Thief 4 to feel so separate that I'm constantly reminded it's NOT the other games in any negative way. It had better be a comfortable fit, worthy of the name "Thief", and not seem like a third or fourth cousin to the trilogy.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Quote Posted by ZergMasterBaiter
ROFL. I'm worried about that too. One of the things that I loved most about the series was Garrett's excellent voiceacting that suited his cynical personality.
Seriously seconded! (& thirded & fourthed) ;)
Quote Posted by ZergMasterBaiter
So if they go for a more edgy angsty approach, via Prince of Persia then I'll be one unhappy taffer :mad:. I was actually surprised when the aristocratic Prince was magically replaced by your typical "cool" American teen wanker archetype in the latest Prince of Persia game. We all know that the new Thi4f game is not primarily aimed at PC market, what last major game was? No it will be a multiplatform title, with particular focus on the xbox crowd who are ... :wot: big surprise:wot: ... primarily teenagers.
Great. Now I'm gonna have nightmares all night. :sweat:
sNeaksieGarrett on 28/2/2010 at 16:15
Quote Posted by ZergMasterBaiter
ROFL. I'm worried about that too. One of the things that I loved most about the series was Garrett's excellent voiceacting that suited his cynical personality. So if they go for a more edgy angsty approach, via Prince of Persia then I'll be one unhappy taffer :mad:. I was actually surprised when the aristocratic Prince was magically replaced by your typical "cool" American teen wanker archetype in the latest Prince of Persia game. We all know that the new Thi4f game is not primarily aimed at PC market, what last major game was? No it will be a multiplatform title, with particular focus on the xbox crowd who are ... :wot: big surprise:wot: ... primarily teenagers. Thus chances are Eidos will go for an edgier approach to show how they "get" their cool-starved teen gamers. So chances are we won't even get a chance to step back into Garrett's cynical shoes but rather will be forced to guide his 16-year old apprentice/adopted son or daughter (some spiky-haired Zaya type perhaps) or whatever other "edgy" character the developers might pull out of their totally edgy arsehat of original ideas. Or will he/she make us think "Italian pimp" as he'she flounces around the City's rooftop with his/her bright red cape flying in the wind? Its all possible with Eidos.
Also its very likely that they will try to reinvent the series for the younger fans, as Thi4f (such title is already a major sign of an edgy reboot) aka "Totally Original Edgy Reboot" by "borrowing" a lot from Assassin's Creed 2. We all know how successful that game has been so far so why not copy it. So I wouldn't be totally surprised if the game is going to be in 3rd person, with insanely large arsenal of medieval weaponry, special kill moves and new acrobatic system complete with wall-runs and suicidal dives that somehow turn into "totally cool!" dagger-first finishing moves mid-dive. Therefore, it will not be a Thief game at all. But I'll probably be proven wrong in the end right :ebil: ?
I think you went a bit overboard. From what I've seen of them so far, I am more confident rather than less confident that it will be a decent game.. Now, it is inevitable that it will be developed for next-gen consoles because the console market is the main focus these days. The main question is, can they successfully build for PC AND xbox at the same time?
