Acorn on 23/6/2009 at 09:58
First, I want to say I am quite enjoying the discussions about the new Thief game and old thief. The pictures people are making and everything. The speculation and discussion alone are probably as entertaining as the game will be.
Ok, remember the old Thief 1 training mission, where a npc walked you through the movements? I think they should bring back that style. Having to pay attention to someone training me to do things was much more immersive than just reading "press x to jump" on the screen. It was classy.
Of course Garrett had to practice sword moves in the training mission back then, and since we generally have to go up against haunts I'm kind of for having a sword again.
Knife backstabbing is sort of like something a thief would do, but I didn't like it like I did swinging the sword.. backstabbing a guy with a knife felt ... underhanded and thuggish.... Ok I was fine with the blackjack, arrows, grenades and sword so go figure. Sword is more elegant.
Also remember in Assassin's Creed they let you practice moves in an arena occasionally as you progressed. I liked that. Granted that Garrett is traditionally not good at combat because you're supposed to be sneaking around, but maybe they could give him some moves that are good for one on one combat only. I mean, what if he had to fight another thief? Or face a single guard... besides drunken benny. The practice arena could be in the thieves guild and garrett is sort of just visiting.
Also, you could have your fighting skills be optional. Or all skills optional. And you could pick and chose which skills to acquire or what level of skill to train up to with the bow, lockpicks, pick-pocketing, hand to hand or a melee weapon at different sites.. and your different skill sets and levels of mastery could be part of what guides you on certain paths through the game, rather than moral choices (un-like Bioshock where the only two options were totally good or totally evil).
Example: You chose to be an archery master so you ended up using the bow at a crucial moment and killing character x which sent events down this certain path.
Or: You chose to be a master pickpocket and pickpocketed them of item x at crucial moment, they didn't die and the game goes a different direction.
Archery training would be in the woods. You already have low level basic skills but you train with this pagan guy to be as good as RobinHood.
Lockpicking, you practice with a friend in town at their house.
Mele weaponry at the thieves guild arena
Pickpocketing practice at the city fair. (I just like the idea of lifting things at a fair or carnival) You take this minor job for quick cash keep gold and turn in items you get (pocketwatches and jewelry) for more gold from the fence at the fairgrounds.
Shadow sneaking practice ... some old Keeper site or some place spooky.
Stath MIA on 23/6/2009 at 15:41
Quote Posted by Acorn
First, I want to say I am quite enjoying the discussions about the new Thief game and old thief. The pictures people are making and everything. The speculation and discussion alone are probably as entertaining as the game will be.
Ok, remember the old Thief 1 training mission, where a npc walked you through the movements? I think they should bring back that style. Having to pay attention to someone training me to do things was much more immersive than just reading "press x to jump" on the screen. It was classy.
Of course Garrett had to practice sword moves in the training mission back then, and since we generally have to go up against haunts I'm kind of for having a sword again.
Knife backstabbing is sort of like something a thief would do, but I didn't like it like I did swinging the sword.. backstabbing a guy with a knife felt ... underhanded and thuggish.... Ok I was fine with the blackjack, arrows, grenades and sword so go figure. Sword is more elegant.
I'm in total agreement with you up to this point. The T1 training mission was done right, it felt so much more realistic than just having stuff mysteriously pop up on screen or, worse, glowing footprints. The knife may have be more stealthy, but it always felt like I was just some common street thug when I used it, so let's go back to the classic Thief experience.
Quote:
Also remember in Assassin's Creed they let you practice moves in an arena occasionally as you progressed. I liked that. Granted that Garrett is traditionally not good at combat because you're supposed to be sneaking around, but maybe they could give him some moves that are good for one on one combat only. I mean, what if he had to fight another thief? Or face a single guard... besides drunken benny. The practice arena could be in the thieves guild and garrett is sort of just visiting.
Also, you could have your fighting skills be optional. Or all skills optional. And you could pick and chose which skills to acquire or what level of skill to train up to with the bow, lockpicks, pick-pocketing, hand to hand or a melee weapon at different sites.. and your different skill sets and levels of mastery could be part of what guides you on certain paths through the game, rather than moral choices (un-like Bioshock where the only two options were totally good or totally evil).
Example: You chose to be an archery master so you ended up using the bow at a crucial moment and killing character x which sent events down this certain path.
Or: You chose to be a master pickpocket and pickpocketed them of item x at crucial moment, they didn't die and the game goes a different direction.
Archery training would be in the woods. You already have low level basic skills but you train with this pagan guy to be as good as RobinHood.
Lockpicking, you practice with a friend in town at their house.
Mele weaponry at the thieves guild arena
Pickpocketing practice at the city fair. (I just like the idea of lifting things at a fair or carnival) You take this minor job for quick cash keep gold and turn in items you get (pocketwatches and jewelry) for more gold from the fence at the fairgrounds.
Shadow sneaking practice ... some old Keeper site or some place spooky.
This is where I lose you. The arena thing might work if it was a stealth arena, but, as a combat arena, I think not. Picking and choosing skills to "specialize" in is a horrible idea, one of the best things about Thief is that it is all on the player and his/her skills, there's no compensating for being a terrible thief by picking a "Duke Nukem Mode" where suddenly you become an uberfighter just by clicking a button. The player should have to develop their own skills and specialties, already you can be a mass-killer, a knockout specialist, or an invisible Ghost, but the gameworld doesn't adapt to your style of play, you have to adapt your style to it, just like the real world.
New Horizon on 23/6/2009 at 16:35
The only problem is that The Dark Project was the first time we met Garrett, so this was more like a test for him while he was with the keepers. Thief 2 did a fairly good job of training the player by only having the training text appear on the easy settings. If you chose the more advanced setting, the training was turned off. Would have been nice if they did that with TDS too..but alas.
Stath MIA on 23/6/2009 at 17:05
@NH- True enough, however I think that it could be done again with a sort of practice area with Garrett himself issuing the orders. This was done in an FM, one of the Trickster's Rift Gem Mine missions.
Acorn on 23/6/2009 at 21:07
I like that idea as well.
Gentleman on 23/6/2009 at 21:29
The first Thief game training mission was relatively easy, at least after I got a hang of the controls. Then the TTGM fan mission came along and we had what should have been a Thief 2 training mission, since Thief 2 did not have one at all. TDS did not have a training mission per se. I was more like a walkthrough.
Would Thief 4 need a training mission, and would that one actually teach the player something that he or she doesn't already know? :confused:
If Thief 4 does have a training mission, I think it should be skippable, for those of us who know the basic sneaking, using the light gem, blackjacking, and keeping quiet. I also think that it should be on a training ground and not an actual mission setting.
Acorn on 23/6/2009 at 21:33
It would teach them something if they are a new player or if they are new to the type of controls they are using having switched between PC and XBOX console.
Chade on 23/6/2009 at 22:55
Dedicated training missions where mechanics are introduced in an un-situated bubble are heavily out of vogue these days, so good luck getting something like T1. And good riddance.
AFAIK, research suggests that player's do not reliably choose appropriate difficulty levels, so that rules out something like T2.
TDS's tutorial could have been done with a bit more class, but something like it is the right way to go. One thing they could do better is to reduce the pace of instruction and do it more subtly. You don't need to have access to lock picks, noise makers, and so on, in your first level. Hell, you can even design the first level so that the player doesn't have to worry about noise.
Valve are very good at tutorials, and EM should look to them for inspiration. Although one big difference is that HL is so linear that it is easy to whack tutorials throughout the whole game without the player noticing. In thief any tutorial stuff really needs to be done at the start of the level, before the player starts expecting the level to open up.
