Volca on 9/7/2008 at 08:08
I really wanted to enjoy TDS, as I enjoyed both TDP and TMA, but I just can't keep on playing it. That's it. No matter what I do, the TDS does fail to attrack and hold my attention. Maybe this is because of me losing the patience I had when I played T1 and T2, not sure.
Now I thought that this is just me getting less concentrated or something. Then my girlfriend finally picked up the three games. She went through the first two on a single breath, nearly, and stopped soon after the start in TDS. She says TDS is not nearly as "theafish" as the first two games.
Coincidence? I think not.
Why? I don't know, really - TDS is a fine peace of work... :confused:
pavlovscat on 9/7/2008 at 11:41
I have to agree with Volca. I was eagerly awaiting the release of TDS. In fact, I pre-ordered the game knowing my current pc wouldn't handle it. Once it shipped, our budget magically expanded to allow both our desktops to be upgraded to be able to play TDS. :rolleyes: :laff:
With a nicely updated pc and a lot of enthusiasm, I delved into TDS. It was Thief, it was good, but it just wasn't the same. Maybe I did want T2.5. Yes, I appreciated the new features though the mid-level loading screens were a total PITA, especially since I tend to wander back & forth through a map.
A large part of how I judge a game is by replayablity. I've played TDS through maybe 4 times. I cannot count the times I've played through the OMs. I don't think my husband ever played through TDS completely, though he did play the OMs several times. I can't put my finger on any one thing, but TDS just didn't hold my interest like T1/2. It just felt less spontaneous to me which is a shame because TDS does have some nice features. Once I'd played through it a few times, it lost its luster. Keep in mind that I hadn't discovered this forum yet. My first FM was T2X which came out well after TDS. By the time T2X was released, I was getting bored with TDS. I had played T1/2 for years (T1 since 1999), and I still replay them every few months. I have started to replay TDS 2 or 3 times, but it just didn't hold my interest.
New Horizon on 9/7/2008 at 13:33
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
I don't like this comment which goes like; "good game on it's own if you haven't played the original two games".
You're free not to like the statement, but for a vast majority that statement holds true, myself included.
Saying that the game is under-rated doesn't really make sense. It did well in gaming reviews against the other games released at the time, and pretty much everyone here recognizes that it was better than a lot of the games released in that time period. Yet, if it's stacked against the previous games, it just doesn't hold up overall...and that's just the sad truth. TDS feels like a late beta release...relatively ready for release, but in need of at least another months work. In some cases....like with the hand drawn maps...it's obvious that parts of the game were slapped together. I can't remember where I read it, but one of the developers said that the art department simply photoshopped the level designers rough sketches for use in game, rather than create proper maps as in Thief 1 and 2.
It was the subtle changes that really altered the style of the game, not so much the glaringly obvious ones. We've all griped about the huge clankity HUD, the ugly menus, the generic looking assets and characters, the auto raising black jack, and the clunky player movement. That's all obvious surface stuff...it was the lack of some subtle mechanics from the previous games that bothered me. Simple things, that could have been added in five minutes, like edible food (which I easily added in The Minimalist Project), a lightgem penalty for taking out offensive weapons..only the fire arrow has any type of effect in TDS(I added this back in Minimalist as well).
I've played small fan missions without rope arrows or water, and they're just as good if done well. It was all the little things that added up to change the feeling of the game....that's what really knocks it down a notch or two for me.
Under-rated? Hardly. The game is recognized fairly for being what it is.
Dia on 9/7/2008 at 14:12
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
I don't like this comment which goes like; "good game on it's own if you haven't played the original two games".
It's a reality, TF. I'm willing to bet that most of those who played TDS were Thief fans and if you've read any of the above posts, explicit reasons are given as to
why TDS fell far short of the mark. The majority of Thief fans obviously favor TDP & TMA because of those very real reasons listed. What part of
"good game on it's own if you haven't played the original two games" do you not understand? (I'm
not being sarcastic here, mind you.) TDS failed miserably
because of all the changes they made. It was supposed to be a continuation of the first two, an attempt that only minimally succeeded in that it did continue with the main Thief saga. To quote an anonymous wise person, 'If it's not broken, don't fix it!'
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
What was it that you didn't like?
As I said, valid reasons for the overall consensus that TDS was a failure in the eyes of most Thief fans have already been given. Do a search in the Thief forums for all the threads regarding TDS vs. the first two Thief games. Taffers go into much more detail in posting their reasons why they disliked TDS so very much.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
Yeah, the levels are smaller.
Not only are they smaller, but the whole game seemed intended for idiots that needed to be lead by the hand in order to get from one mission to another.
Far too linear. In TDP & TMA you had a lot more freedom to explore & wander. That was (and still is) part of TDP & TMA's charm. You actually had to do a lot of searching and travelling in some missions in order to obtain your goal and since the maps were
much larger, it added to the enjoyment to those of us who liked to explore and search. In TDS, you were only allowed to go from point A to point B; several times if the mission called for it since the maps were a great deal smaller in TDS. There were times when I felt like a yoyo, going back & forth so much. That was the first mistake Eidos made: creating TDS for Xbox and
then converting it for the PC. They did it wrong.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
Yeah, there are more changes. Yes, Ion Storm could have done a much better job of the bug fixing. But there are some new features in this game which expand the series even more.
The changes made in TDS weren't for the best, as I stated above. For cryin' out loud! Just the training mission was an affront to Thief fans!! Follow the Footsteps??? Oh please! Another example: in designing a game aimed at five-year-olds, they made the loot-glint so obvious that my legally blind grandmother could have spotted the loot from across the room.
And, like it or not, most of us Taffers
were disappointed by the lack of rope arrows; hell, you had to get half-way through the darned game before you could afford those stupid climbing gloves, and even then the areas in which you could actually use them were severely limited.
AND SINCE WHEN THE HELL DID GARRETT FORGET HOW TO SWIM?????!!!!! Now THAT was one of the worst mistakes Eidos committed in creating TDS, imo. In TDP & TMA there were missions where it was imperative that Garrett be able to swim for moderately long distances (with or without the benefit of Breath Potion) in order to get to his next objective. That ability added moderate challenge and a change of pace in the minds of a lot of Thief fans and was just plain fun. So why suddenly render Garrett incapable of swimming? What was the point of that except maybe not wanting to challenge those aforementioned five-year-old minds, to which the game seemed geared.
A
dagger??? What kind of sissy-weapon is that??!!! Okay, I'll admit that Garrett's swordplay was limited at best in TDP & TMA, but hell! That added to the challenge and encouraged stealth, which was the best part of the games! Garrett
already had a blackjack, why give him a dinky dagger that was best used behind someone's back? Garrett needed a major weapon, i.e., a sword, with which he could defend himself against more than one opponent; not a silly little steak knife.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
And the storyline is on par with the original games, IMO even more so. What is so bad about it? Were you expecting Thief 2.5?
As I said before, that was probably the only area in which Eidos succeeded with TDS. They did manage to continue Garrett's saga, while (in the opinions of some) actually leaving room for yet another installment of Thief. Let's just hope that someone from Eidos is paying attention (they
had to have received hundreds of complaints!) if they decide to create a T4. What was so bad about it? It was a disappointment. If I wanted to play a platform game I could have just played Tomb Raider. At least TR never claimed to be anything other than what it was. (And it was actually quite enjoyable as far as platform games go.)
Quote Posted by theBlackman
Underrated for what it is. What
it isn't is THIEF with the challenges and excitement.
Seconded. :thumb:
And 'nuff said.
jay pettitt on 9/7/2008 at 14:17
Tweaking .ini files to change the default speed to walk and switching off the lock picking HUD improved things a bit for me (the two are oddly related), but it's still a long way from being the game it should have been; it somehow seemed contrived and immaterial. Still, Deadly Shadows was worth persevering with if only for the stunning Cradle mission; easily worth the then £35 entry fee all by itself.
Eshaktaar on 9/7/2008 at 15:38
Quote Posted by Dia
So why suddenly render Garrett incapable of swimming? What was the point of that except maybe not wanting to challenge those aforementioned five-year-old minds, to which the game seemed geared.
To be fair, that wasn't a design decision but a result of the numerous technical difficulties the developers were facing during production. The same goes for the missing rope arrow. They couldn't get it to work in time, so they had to implement an alternative (which unfortunately wasn't as much fun).
I like TDS (mainly because of the Cradle) and its story line.
However, I think one thing that broke the system for me was the way you could amass way more money and equipment than you'd ever need in the game. Finding another water crystal quickly became nothing special, because in most cases I was already carrying the maximum amount anyway.
Compare that to the system in Thief 1 & 2 where you can spend the money you stole in the former mission for the next mission's equipment
only. Since the equipment doesn't transfer from one mission to the other, there's no sense in saving stuff for later. Both mechanics encourage the player to make frequent use of their equipment and to spend their money instead of stockpiling everything until the game's over.
ToolFan2007 on 9/7/2008 at 16:36
Dia,
Everything you said in your last post could be routed back to the fact that you have not let go from the “LOL this is for Xbox kiddies lol nubs” lines. The only thing nub about it is that you played the game whilst having this HUGE chip on your shoulder. I would LOVED to have seen the reaction of you playing through TDS, it would equate to the the hundreds of 2 Girls 1 Cup reaction videos on Youtube. “NEW LEVEL DESIGN? IN *MY * GAME?!!!”
Quote:
but the whole game seemed intended for idiots
That comment is as idiotic as it gets.
I'd imagine most console gamers have never played Thief nor heard of it. Most games hold the hand of the player nowadays, yet I don't hear you whining about them. Waypoints on Oblivion anyone? Gears Of War linearity? Crysis with blips on the map? GTAIV? Thief is no more holding your hand than any of these games. Also, some of the levels in Thief and T2 are just downright complex and pretty much inaccessible for anyone who isn't hugely engrossed in the story, Sabotage at Soulforge for example.
Quote:
A dagger??? What kind of sissy-weapon is that??!!! Okay, I'll admit that Garrett's swordplay was limited at best in TDP & TMA, but hell! That added to the challenge and encouraged stealth, which was the best part of the games! Garrett already had a blackjack, why give him a dinky dagger that was best used behind someone's back? Garrett needed a major weapon, i.e., a sword, with which he could defend himself against more than one opponent; not a silly little steak knife.
In what movie has a burglar or thief ever waved a sword never mind be skilled in it? Do you think it is realistic that Garrett be a master in swordfighting? Garrett is known to be slim and athletic and that he can leave a swordfight standing is as asinine of some of the crap you decided was above your intellect in TDS. It is as bad as invisibility potions. Also how feasible is it for a thief to be stealthy with a sword at his side, besides it hitting objects and being heavy to carry that it would exhaust him in no time at all.
If Thief 3 came out like the original two games I would have been pissed off. Maybe some people like you enjoy the same stuff done over and over again. That's why GTAIV is a successful series. It sticks to the same formula and rarely changes. It appears people of your ilk dislike Deadly Shadows as it is some kind of personal attack to your apparent high intelligence. You have to get over the fact the game has been dumbed down, quite significantly, in some areas. But there are those of us who were able to look over this fact and enjoy the better things TDS did. Roaming the city, picking fights with factions, watching the city develop in the later levels, choosing which level to take next. These are all NEW things to TDS which you apparently missed or just chose to ignore.
I accept you dislike the game and are sorry about that, but some of your points which you consider everyone should accept, just don't make any sense.
pavlovscat on 9/7/2008 at 17:02
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
I'd imagine most console gamers have never played Thief nor heard of it. Most games hold the hand of the player nowadays, yet I don't hear you whining about them. Waypoints on Oblivion anyone? Gears Of War linearity? Crysis with blips on the map? GTAIV? Thief is no more holding your hand than any of these games. Also, some of the levels in Thief and T2 are just downright complex and pretty much inaccessible for anyone who isn't hugely engrossed in the story, Sabotage at Soulforge for example.
This is exactly why you have such a dedicated fan following for a 10 yr old game with 10 yr old graphics. I don't bother with most newer games. Most of them bore me to tears. They may be pretty to look at, but please make me think! The essence of Thief is figuring out the puzzles and having many different ways to complete a level. Thief is best suited for careful, considered game play, not the Let-Me-Beat-This-as-Fast-as-I-Can player who will miss many of the subtleties that make Thief so enjoyable. IMO most new games are designed to be so linear that they don't require much creativity to finish.
BrokenArts on 9/7/2008 at 17:30
Ohhh looks who's back. Hi Toolfan, gonna play nice this time?
Kin on 9/7/2008 at 18:14
Quote Posted by nicked
Just use Dromed. That's easy.
BAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!Well if T4 comes out i don't think it will contain an easy editor like dromed.
At least not for you.