New Horizon on 9/7/2008 at 18:29
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
In what movie has a burglar or thief ever waved a sword never mind be skilled in it? Do you think it is realistic that Garrett be a master in swordfighting?
1. Thief is not a movie. It had it's own reality. I don't see how movies apply at all. You're attempting to compare Thief to a reality that the movies spoon feeds us. I've certainly seen movies where the Thief character has brandished 'a SHORT SWORD'!
2. Short Sword...shorter than a full sized sword. Anywhere from 20 to 30 inches. A dagger, could probably be anywhere from 10 to 18 inches. So using the smallest shortsword wouldn't be much different.
Inline Image:
http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/images/products/46_large5.jpgOur character in Dark Mod uses a short sword.
3. He was never a master swordsman, it was used to defend against attacks. He could block and swing...nothing major.
The major argument for me against the dagger, is that it is of little use as a defensive weapon...if you're going to use it, you have no option to block...only harm...or run. The sword at least gave you a a few seconds to block some blows and plan your escape.
In any case, movies have little to do with the environment established in the previous two Thief games.
Dia on 9/7/2008 at 18:31
Obviously not, B'Arts.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
Everything you said in your last post could be routed back to the fact that you have not let go from the “LOL this is for Xbox kiddies lol nubs” lines. The only thing nub about it is that you played the game whilst having this HUGE chip on your shoulder.
Omg; Tool, fyi I went out & bought TDS and was practically drooling with anticipation even up until I started actually playing it. Even then I tried very hard to remain objective. There was no chip and there is
still no chip. I, like quite a few other avid Thief fans, was seriously disappointed by the game. Plain and simple. As far as Xbox or any other platform game; did you not read my post in its entirety? I admit freely to playing platform games and yes; even liking quite a few of them tremendously.
So as far as your above statement is concerned, you're talking out your ..... oh nevermind.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
I would LOVED to have seen the reaction of you playing through TDS, it would equate to the the hundreds of 2 Girls 1 Cup reaction videos on Youtube. “NEW LEVEL DESIGN? IN *MY * GAME?!!!”
Uncalled for. Though from what I understand, that type of trollish remark is the norm for you.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
I’d imagine most console gamers have never played Thief nor heard of it. Most games hold the hand of the player nowadays, yet I don’t hear you whining about them. Waypoints on Oblivion anyone? Gears Of War linearity? Crysis with blips on the map? GTAIV? Thief is no more holding your hand than any of these games.
I'm surprised you've even played Oblivion. Imo there was far less handholding in that game than in TDS. No footprints you're forced to follow and pretty much free rein in wandering where ever you choose. And no loot glint that positively blinds. Plus, with all the different objectives available from all the different factions you could join, well; the game could become quite complex indeed.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
Also, some of the levels in Thief and T2 are just downright complex and pretty much inaccessible for anyone who isn’t hugely engrossed in the story, Sabotage at Soulforge for example.
Well, that just about sums it up right there. At least concerning your reasoning as to why you'd find TDS appealing. Not everyone is looking for a quick, easy game that has all the answers/hints laid out for them in plain sight. Some actually prefer a more involved story line. At least, those of us who don't have the attention span of a gnat, that is.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
In what movie has a burglar or thief ever waved a sword never mind be skilled in it? Do you think it is realistic that Garrett be a master in swordfighting? Garrett is known to be slim and athletic and that he can leave a swordfight standing is as asinine of some of the crap you decided was above your intellect in TDS. It is as bad as invisibility potions. Also how feasible is it for a thief to be stealthy with a sword at his side, besides it hitting objects and being heavy to carry that it would exhaust him in no time at all.
Excuse me; I didn't realize you were going for 'reality'. Oh yes; TDS was ever so much more realistic than TDP or TMA. FFS Tool; they're just GAMES!!! TDS was no more realistic than the first two. 'Climbing gloves'? Iirc, TDS also had several different kinds of arrows available for Garrett's use. Yeah, TDS was soooo much more based on reality.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
If Thief 3 came out like the original two games I would have been pissed off. Maybe
some people like you enjoy the same stuff done over and over again. That’s why GTAIV is a successful series. It sticks to the same formula and rarely changes. It appears
people of your ilk dislike Deadly Shadows as it is some kind of personal attack to your apparent high intelligence.
You don't know me; I was merely doing the very same thing as you. Posting my opinion. Get over yourself and live and let live.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
You have to get over the fact the game has been dumbed down, quite significantly, in some areas.
My point exactly. After playing TDP & TMA, games that were challenging and resourceful, playing a 'dumbed down' game like TDS was a serious disappointment and no amount of loot glint could remedy that.
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
But there are those of us who were able to look over this fact and enjoy the better things TDS did. Roaming the city, picking fights with factions, watching the city develop in the later levels, choosing which level to take next. These are all NEW things to TDS which you apparently missed or just chose to ignore.
Roaming the city, picking fights with factions, watching the city develop? Did you even play TDP and TMA??? How can you possibly think that any of the above are exclusive to TDS (unless you quit playing the first two games because they were too complex)?
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
I accept you dislike the game and are sorry about that, but some of your points which you consider everyone should accept, just don’t make any sense.
Then you're not reading carefully enough. I stated my opinion as clearly and concisely as everyone else who's posted in this thread. At least you accept the fact that I didn't care for TDS. Now accept the fact that if you post a thread on a subject that you know to be potentially controversial in the Thief community, there are bound to be posts by members who thoroughly disagree with you and who will post their opinions on that subject.
Beleg Cúthalion on 9/7/2008 at 19:13
1. The are no short-swords. There maybe short(er) swords, but not what I think many people would like to be RPG fantasy (and its need for different damage points etc.) come true.
2. And lately I wonder what is more ridiculous: Having a character who jumps with five pounds of silver goblets, bow, sword and a full quiver into a sewer, dives for a minute or so and enters a mansion without leaving any trace - or having one who drowns as he tries to swim but thus avoids the stuff mentioned before.
3. It always seems to me Thief is supposed to consist of swimmable water and rope arrows, while I thought it was about hiding from guards and sneaking from shadow to shadow in a dark and dirty strange city. I think that's what TDS basically is. Oh, and Garrett was finally able to climb railings, probably indeed an advantage over forgetting how to swim, especially for a housebreaker.
4. Summa summarum - and to come back to the topic - I think TDS was maybe not underrated but overly criticised, apparently in a self-running manner. Who would not try to find the flaws in a game everyone is talking about?
PS: 5. This might not be argument at all if it wasn't for the huge modding tradition in the community: If everyone knows what [a] "good Thief [game/mission]" is and what not, I wonder why hardly any FM gives me the feeling of being in TDP or TMA again; or why - if I simply don't want to consider people "being in a learning process" for now - apparently no one wants that feeling to come back.
Goldmoon Dawn on 19/7/2008 at 23:30
Oh my Lord, there is so much I wish I could say, but I dont think Im allowed to! :eek:
But I can say that I think its amusing that Toolfan makes his triumphant return on the unsuspecting, and before you know it we are up to our necks in zombie parts! :p
TF on 20/7/2008 at 03:20
other way around
242 on 20/7/2008 at 13:06
Quote Posted by Kin
I believe the major mistake developers made with TDS is they restrained the freedom in the game with 3 major ways 1. creating loading zones(less space for exploration), 2. no swimable water (less space for exploration), 3. no rope arrows (again less less ways for exploration).
This is it. You can't imagine what changes in gameplay and story could be made from developers if those 3 things where correctly build in the game.
Then i believe the game would be far better.
Two words: wrong engine.
The thing is just not appropriate for large levels with complex architecture, detailed objects and photorealistic look.
TDS, DeusEx2, BioShock - all fell victims of the Unreal engine. I instantly can recognize a game made with it, they all kind of remind each other, at least visually.
Kin on 20/7/2008 at 13:58
Quote Posted by 242
Two words: wrong engine.
Agree with that.
My opinion is that they should have used an engine from scratch like T1 and T2.
Kaleid on 20/7/2008 at 14:00
Don't forget console limitations and adjustments to suit both the console and the PC. Especially DE: IW and T3 suffered because of Xbox low 64MB memory footprint.
The developers also seemed to make the engine a bit too complex, I remember reading that 3/4 of what fitted into the 64MB RAM was the engine code.
New Horizon on 20/7/2008 at 15:03
Quote Posted by Kin
Agree with that.
My opinion is that they should have used an engine from scratch like T1 and T2.
They essentially did write the engine from scratch though. The TDS engine is really not unreal anymore. That has been stated by the developers themselves. The renderer is a rewrite, they would have written all the sound prop stuff, the stim/response stuff. I think they would have been better off licensing the Quake 3 or Doom 3 engines, both of those had a similar feel to the original Thief series....and have great support for the modding community.
Kin on 20/7/2008 at 15:18
Quote Posted by New Horizon
would have been better off licensing the Quake 3 or Doom 3 engines, both of those had a similar feel to the original Thief series....and have great support for the modding community.
Agree with that too:cheeky:
If thief DS used doom 3 engine then dark mod would be a reality right now with another name.
