Zephriel on 25/7/2008 at 20:24
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
Or should that be YOU'VE never played Oblivion. The map gives you waypoints for each and every quest objective. TDS does not.
Yep-- and you can ignore them all, if you so choose.
If you want to spend the game grinding and harvesting herbs, you're more than welcome to do so. If you want to take on only the main quest, you can. If you want to ignore the main quest completely, go ahead. Evil? Good? Your choice. Be the terror of the land or a well-loved hero.
TDS may not give you the exact location of your mission goal, but there are no side quests, and you have no choice but to follow the plotline.
I thought TDS was okay, but I will always prefer T1 and T2. What can I say? I liked the rope arrows, and the freedom that came with them. In-depth story, huge maps, plenty of room to explore.
RavynousHunter on 25/7/2008 at 22:27
TDS is an example of how a potentially excellent game was raped from both ends: by the publishers, and by casual gamers who didn't want to think of anything more complicated than "Unh, me go where, now?"
Isabo on 10/8/2008 at 10:11
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
"Troll" is usually the word people use when the said poster cannot reply to a post, for fear of appearing weak or blatant side-stepping of addressing the matter.
Or should that be YOU'VE never played Oblivion. The map gives you waypoints for each and every quest objective. TDS does not.
I'd guess at least 75% of people that completed the game used a walkthrough to finish the game. SAS required the patience of a saint to finish without the player feeling incredibly bored. A majority of the people who did finish it without are probably still posting about it.
Again, goes back to your "I think this game should have been the same as rest of the series" post.
TDS had features the other games in the series could only wish to have. They could not pull it off.
The game I played was level 1, level 2, level 3 add infinitum. Not sure what version you played, or what mods you installed - maybe you could advise?
I post to educate others, people need to cut the strings on the "I'm better than you for liking the originals". They would enjoy the game a lot more.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I agree with everything you said. TDS is overlooked as being simplistic and a console game. The game is as fun as you can get for a stealth game and I certainly enjoyed lots of it more than the other games. There is nothing fun about being able to exploit the games AI in Thief & Thief 2 by jumping on tables and watching them run for help. And what the hell was with the last mission from Thief 2, and a mission which takes place at EXACTLY THE SAME mansion (Masks I think) with new contents? Boring, can't wait to play TDS through on Expert this time.
jtr7 on 10/8/2008 at 11:15
Sure, there are dozens of common complaints about ALL the Thief games. What's unique about TDS is that the common complaints are considered very offensive by TDS fans.
Complaining does not equal hatred. There are those that hate what they don't like about the games, and those who simply acknowledge a flaw. There are those who complain from being disappointed by something they wanted to love. There are complaints that come from not being able to get as excited about the newer games. The readers of complaining posts should know they are making assumptions about the hearts and minds of the posters, and may be really wrong in their assumptions.
One of the things that exaggerates the differences between TDS and the older titles, is the way those who prefer TDS react to complaints versus the fans who prefer the older titles. Just the way the fans react shows how different they are.
Also, "troll" may be used incorrectly in other forum sites, as is language in general, but around here, it's usually used correctly, except by those who are accused of being one. When I use the term, it's because there is no doubt, after observing several demonstrations by the poster, that they are instigating trouble, pushing buttons, then acting as an innocent victim, repeating ignorant statements after being given the facts, insulting poeple by stating they are saying something they are not, not answering questions designed to find common ground and make peace, demonstrating a strong lack of reading comprehension, and eventually being all-around unpleasant--all confirmed by several people, sometimes by people who don't like each other much, but agree that the poster is indeed being a troll.
When a person with a history of acting troll-ish starts a thread on the very topic that has brought out the emotions on both sides in the past, and there's no reason whatsoever to believe popular opinion has changed much at all, then we call this "baiting", a troll tactic. If the thread-starter refrains from reacting predictably and stays cool, then that's progress.
When discussing TDS, it's best to show a distinction between the game elements, how one feels about the game, and an understanding of historical fact, including common opinion. Separate facts from emotions. How I feel about any game is not a true measurement of that game. We know why we like, dislike, love or hate a game, or parts of a game. We know what a given game means to us.
As for TDS, we can know how the majority feel about it and why, and we can find ourselves thinking along the same lines about it, or we can feel disconnected and not relate. We can agree and disagree with the complaints according to our own experiences, value system, personality, etc. It's personal.
However, when there is an agreement between a hundred people over an argument point, and they disagree with a dozen people, and the dozen cannot come up with a compelling counter-argument that isn't rooted in the subjective and visceral, then the hundred will likely not have a strong enough reason to change their opinion. Stick with the facts, learn the facts, and realise the emotions are personal and we can maintain civility.
muteki13 on 10/8/2008 at 15:44
I liked TDS. The real reason it is so hated by the Thief community is because they made such major changes in the format, which were interpreted as blasphemy.
Many people claim that having a 3rd person perspective is anti-Thief and not nearly as in-your-face as 1st person. But you still had the option to play it in 1st person and the 3rd person look offered up some lovely visuals for the cinematic-loving crowd, e.g. Garrett flattening himself against a wall while a guard walks right in front of him, or kneeling in front of Lauryl's ghost while her white glowing light shines off his face.
The city exploration was a definite plus and I wish it had been there in the earlier Thief games. The side quests added to the atmosphere and I thought it was neat how you didn't have to do them, but if you wanted to do them you had to find them first.
The cut scenes were still as dramatic as ever, although I found the switching between styles to be very confusing. The scene where Gamall is unmasked is one of the best, if not the best cutscene in Thief history.
The music was great and very mindful of the past music and ambience sounds used in the older games.
The goal of the levels was exactly the same as the older games. And playing it on expert still meant no killing, but it added the special loot requirement, which I really thought was neat. The older games had special loot too, it just wasn't identified as such, so they were just expanding on a pre-existing idea. And using a percentage for the loot counting system instead of a number that means nothing until you've beaten the level? Duh! What an obvious solution! It's lame that no one thought of it before.
The only real shortcoming of TDS that I don't think people just made up is that the levels are not as huge and immersing as the older levels (except for the Cradle of course). Part of that may be that there aren't nearly as many guards so it doesn't take as long to move through a level. Another may be the dearth of Art Deco skyscrapers or other such huge complex levels that are designed to take a long time to complete.
I don't think that format changes should be held against games for the sake of progress. Games today just won't cut it if they are designed in exactly the same way they were 10 years ago. The industry has moved on. It strikes me as ironic that members of the gaming culture that is frowned upon by all the reactionary types out there can be so reactionary themselves. Look at the big to-do going on with Diablo III because the developers are daring to use more than 16 colors. That shouldn't be a problem. We should be excited at the opportunity to see our favorite games reinterpreted through modern styles and mechanics. And then only complain if the game is genuinely awful, not because the grass in the game looks different or the hero's outfit looks lighter.
muteki13 on 10/8/2008 at 15:54
Also, using a dagger instead of a sword? Obvious! Daggers are much more stealthy and concealable than a big bulky sword that would knock over everything, scrape against walls, and make crouching awkward and uncomfortable. If the earlier developers weren't big RPG tabletop fanatics used to every character having swords or axes, they would have realized this.
Beleg Cúthalion on 10/8/2008 at 19:05
Quote Posted by jtr7
There are those that hate what they don't like about the games, and those who simply acknowledge a flaw. There are those who complain from being disappointed by something they wanted to love. There are complaints that come from not being able to get as excited about the newer games. The readers of complaining posts should know they are making assumptions about the hearts and minds of the posters, and may be really wrong in their assumptions.
Left aside that you took for granted that there are no ill-founded complaints about TDS (which I still assume :p, all the self-runners etc.), there is also the issue that some TDS lovers are considered second class Thief fans even if they are not from the played-only/first-TDS ranks. I think that's one of the major problems if we dare to speak about treating people reasonably.
Yeah, we are the victims.
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http://www.eidosforum.de/images/smilies/addon/ploed.gifThor on 10/8/2008 at 20:25
Quote Posted by Wille
Biggest turnoff for me in TDS is the horrible body awareness based movement, everything feels delayed and inaccurate. I played through the game when it came out but I just can't go back anymore. If someone would some day release a small mod that changes TDS movement to precise traditional FPS style movement it would be a brand new game for me.
Are you insane/nuts/bonzo/three fries a happy meal/wacko? What's so damn wrong with body-awareness -_- I rather disliked the f**king stroke when i was completely in the dark, and the eye lol...but i guess that's normal... besides it think it shoujld we very easy to make an option: Body Awareness: on/off
New Horizon on 10/8/2008 at 22:06
Quote Posted by Thor02
...besides it think it shoujld we very easy to make an option: Body Awareness: on/off
You think wrong. You can't simply turn body awareness on or off...that would require implementing two completely different systems in a game. A traditional first person system, that uses the simple animated hands, and a full fledged 3d model.
It would all have to work flawlessly with the AI combat system. Impacts from sword blows would have to react the same in both formats, it would be a heck of a lot of work.
Tannar on 10/8/2008 at 22:53
I have just two words about TDS: Wall hugging!
(Oh, and I loved the widow's singing!) ;)
