Platinumoxicity on 20/7/2010 at 13:33
The maps in TDS are missing vital paths and doors, entire areas are completely absent and there is no indication of multiple floors even though that's something that Garrett could determine just by outside observation.
I wouldn't really have that much of a problem with it if there was a similar system like in the originals that the map indicates where you're supposed to be. Because seriously, the only way you could really position yourself on maps in TDS would be if the map told you. The proportions are so bad that the majority of the game-world locations are in completely wrong places on the map. Even though some maps in the originals were almost as bad as all maps in TDS, they had the courtesy of telling you were you were in those maps.
Another possibility would've been to have Garrett update the map as he goes, like in "Casing the Joint". The Map of St. Edgar's Cathedral shows that the entire building complex is a small building with 6 rooms and 5 doors, and no second floor, which is completely false, which means that Garrett has the map of the wrong building.
If nothing else, for crying out loud at least have the floors separated to individual maps instead of having all the different floors blended randomly into one map because it makes no sense and only makes navigation more confusing. But honestly, if the maps would have real proportions and you could actually determine your location using landmarks, you wouldn't even need that T1 or T2 -style location indication. TDS had neither the quality nor the location indicator in the maps which made the maps completely worthless. (Not that you would've needed the maps anyway since all the levels in the game would fit inside Angelwatch, but you know...)
Beleg Cúthalion on 20/7/2010 at 18:43
Thanks for the dev info, I had read that before but didn't have it in my mind.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
...and I'm sure people are as equally annoyed by the pro TDS camp beating their drum about how we don't understand just how great it really was, and how under appreciated the game is.
I don't think I ever made a statement indicating how great TDS was, but rather what – being honest to oneself – is a quite reliable gameplay feature. And I usually assume people are clever enough to see that difference. Yes, I'm nitpicking about it, at least until I get tired and abandon the Thief community as something I want to benefit from. In fact I could do this right now and laugh about those whose playing experience or immersion is ruined by a strange circle the Garrett avatar runs or a few blinking emitters, but I always have the idea that people can somehow understand what I have in mind...and thus enjoy the game a bit more. I think fighting for people to like something (which isn't exactly dangerous or against the human rights etc.) is a bit more noble than leading a hate campaign.
Plus, I wonder why anyone can run into TTLG and open a thread for everything without being reminded of the search function.
New Horizon on 20/7/2010 at 19:30
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Thanks for the dev info, I had read that before but didn't have it in my mind.I don't think I ever made a statement indicating how great TDS was, but rather what – being honest to oneself – is a quite reliable gameplay feature. And I usually assume people are clever enough to see that difference. Yes, I'm nitpicking about it, at least until I get tired and abandon the Thief community as something I want to benefit from. In fact I could do this right now and laugh about those whose playing experience or immersion is ruined by a strange circle the Garrett avatar runs or a few blinking emitters, but I always have the idea that people can somehow understand what I have in mind...and thus enjoy the game a bit more. I think fighting for people to like something (which isn't exactly dangerous or against the human rights etc.) is a bit more noble than leading a hate campaign.
Who exactly has ever lead a hate campaign? lol That's ridiculous. People who disliked the game are merely expressing their dislikes, much like people who liked it are expressing their appreciation. For me, the cons far outweighed the pros....which is why it's a good 'game' but only a sub standard 'Thief' experience. IMHO.
Melan on 20/7/2010 at 21:19
I recently reinstalled the game after a long break (I played some fan missions now and then, but not much else), partly because I wanted to be honest with myself about it and not let the usual forum negativity colour my views. I added John P.'s high res textures and the Minimalist Project as an extra. Here is what I think after replaying a few original missions and wandering around in the city:
* The game actually looks really good with everything maxed out and the assets partially replaced. Some don't like the blue-and-yellow world and art direction, but while different from T1 and T2, it has its charm and features some very good architecture (just Rutherford Mansion's front is a thing of beauty, and there is a lot of good detailwork here and there in the city hubs - the crooked rooflines, rotund towers and dark recesses are good).
* The audio is great Brosius work; like Alex Brandon with Deus Ex 2, he moved towards a less intrusive musical environment, which I like less than the originals, but can appreciate.
* The background building through the readables is less powerful - the texts are shorter and more to the point. Brevity has advantages, but here it also means a loss of the ambiguity that characterised Thief. Game over simulation.
* Movement is horrible and no fan patch could remedy that. I am sorry, but it is often just unpleasant to move around in Garrett's new body. There is, interestingly, a lot of opportunity in climbing gloves that was never used in the game. You can climb up here and there, but the mechanic is not explored to the extent where it becomes the focus of your missions and a constant way to interact with the environment. You can't do as much with them as you might. More of a missed opportunity than a negative.
* Did not get too far with the story, but I must mention the basic plot is strong. The Lady in Grey is a great villain in the classic Leiber tradition, and if the whole thing was presented just a bit better, people would recognise TDS's story as a great conclusion to the trilogy. Animated stone statues are also among the best opponents in the series. Very good AI barks and well-suited for the universe. When I first met them, Keeper Enforcers were just extremely scary for the twenty minutes they didn't reveal themselves to be horrible doofuses. There was a real sense of panic about these things hunting you in the empty streets. With a little better AI programming and some team code, they would have topped haunts in the terror department.
* I think freeroaming did not work. It was a concept that appeared good when reading about in previews, but the city would have worked better as actual missions (and yeah, larger ones, like LotP or Assassins), maybe one about rooftopping, one about some black market machinations, and a third with Enforcers stalking you in the gloom.
In all, except for two major issues (No. 1 is movement, No. 2 is small maps), my new opinion is that TDS is frustrating because there is a genuinely great game there that would have lived up fully to the legacy and then some if only a lot of small things went better for the dev team, and they weren't hanstrung by technology and the need to sell their product to an audience who (supposedly) had to be talked down to. That's just unfortunate. :p
Goldmoon Dawn on 20/7/2010 at 23:14
Damn "enforcers". They should have left that concept back in SSII.
jtr7 on 21/7/2010 at 01:54
Sadly, Beleg took an opportunity to mock peripheral points, avoiding the central issues that all spawn from and orbit around:
Quote Posted by Krypt
Haha. The statement that they look like childish pictures is accurate in a funny way. I was a little disappointed with how the maps turned out too, and don't think they ended up being particularly useful to gameplay.
One day all the designers were asked to draw up a quick sketch of the maps to give the artists an idea of the map layouts. So that was what we did, under the assumption the artists would redo them and make them look much better than our crude drawings. Once the maps finally got into the game we were surprised to find that they were the exact temp images we had drawn ourselves, with a "wrinkled old paper" filter overlay and a couple icons added in for landmarks. At least they redid the crude little sailboat picture (meant to represent the Abysmal Gale) in the docks map I drew :joke: I should have gotten an art credit for that!
So essentially what you're looking at are maps drawn by non-artist Designers who were under the assumption the images would be temporary.
New Horizon on 21/7/2010 at 02:40
Quote Posted by jtr7
Sadly, Beleg took an opportunity to mock peripheral points, avoiding the central issues that all spawn from and orbit around:
Ahhh, yes. It was Krypt who told us that. Yup, kind of a disgrace that the artists were so lazy. If they took the time to prepare those maps to work with an overlay, they could have better spent the time recreating them to look decent.
Beleg Cúthalion on 21/7/2010 at 07:40
Just one question... if re-united TDS maps were published, would anyone care to design new map drawings? I think I got seven or eight "golden" maps which just need a bit of texture overhaul and a few little things adjusted and then they'd work in the game.
Dresden on 21/7/2010 at 19:32
To the OP: So pretty much everything. I agree, but one thing:
Quote:
The replacement of the rope arrows with climbing gloves remains a lasting disappointment as this feature was unique to the Thief games up until recently (Trine).
Try Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. You get a bow that shoots rope arrows in that and they have some brilliant rope physics.
Gvozdika on 21/7/2010 at 20:40
Brilliant rope physics that may get you stuck in a nearby wall.
Good thing about it is unlimited ammo, though. So when you run out of arrows you can still shoot orcs with ropes.
