Thief FM "The Bluecoat's Training Facility" Mar. 11/03

tacky on 12/3/2003 at 21:05

BadArm and anyone missing loot - Ive played this mission and found all of the loot. Looks like you are missing quite an amount. Hard to find loot: gold coin on nightstand in the officers quarter, gold coins on the bunkbeds in the guard barracks, loose coins in the huge shower room, purse and loose coin on the floor under the dining room table, gem ring and loose coin under the bench in the locker room, gold ring in the sink in the game room, gold wine bottles under the shelf in the cellar, blue crystal behind the stack of crates in the Armory, and a loose coin on the game table in the game room. I believe there were some more gold rings, but just check each table. The hardest part was finding the gold coins. The last place I expected them to be was on the bunk beds under the guard's faces.

To answer the question about the vault combination: [SPOILER]I believe when it asks "# of men standing facing eachother" it is either the dummies in the courtyard, or the unarmed guards in the barracks. Either way I counted 6. When it asks "# of letters in the word spelled out with beer bottles," you must go to the game room and onto the counter. Look at the beer bottles and you should see "THIEF". Well, you thought it was lager and that was still 5 letters. Finding the Novice food item was easy; it was posted in the kitchen and = 3. The number in the manual next to guardlog was 8.[/SPOILER]

If you have any other questions, please ask.

BadArm on 12/3/2003 at 23:03

Ottensen,

I think your problem is that you're trying to see and highlight the key and then grab it. That's not how I got it. I read in a note some where that it should be under Watts bed. I also found out from other missions that you can frob and grab something you can't see. It's like the program knows when it's highlighted even though you don't. So, just keep clicking the right mouse button as you move around the bed. Sooner of later you'll get it, and as soon as you do, there'll be a sound and it will appear in your inventory. This is how I got it. But like I said

[SPOILER]it wasn't really under Watts bed, (at least I don't think so) it was under the bed next to his. But I may be wrong because I never saw it. I just went on faith that it was there and kept clicking.[/SPOILER]

BTW Tacky, what about those 2 metal doors I couldn't get open. Did you find a way to open them?

tacky on 13/3/2003 at 00:03

One metal door is in the Armory and can't be accessed or opened at all. But behind this door is the library that you get to from the Servant Fritz's secret passage.

You obviously found the workshop in the cellar which has a metal door but I can't think of any others you might be talking about.

deadman on 13/3/2003 at 03:20

I know I'm in the minority in this (unless it's just that people ony want to be positive), but I feel like offering some 'constructive criticism'. Overall this mission just doesn't feel real to me. Generally, I think the age-old FM paradigm applies (at least many of us believe this): "Build a smaller, more detailed mission over a bigger less detailed one and the people will rejoice." .. "Quality over quantity" might apply here as well. It seemed to me that there were lots of plain bare corridors (especially in the Armory) that I started to feel like I was playing Doom or Duke Nukem 3D again :p I know this was your first FM, and I accordingly will forgive you for this, but the outside could have used a lot of improvement. I know this is a challenge in any FM (to make the borders not look like borders), and it would be great if we could just build out in the middle of nowhere with a mist around the edges, but we can't.. I guess what I mean to say is the outer walls could have done with a bit of variety.. Maybe they could have been made to look like battlements or something rather than a even border? The AI patrolling the grounds, although each carrying a torch, were quite easy even for me to take down with no effort at all. I think this could have perhaps been remedied at least at one or two places by brightly lighting a section (preferrably a section that can't be walked around or avoided) and having several patrols meet up and cross paths there.. Maybe even make it a tiled or marble surface, although I know how much everyone hates that :laff:. I liked the idea of the [spoiler]secret waterways in the fountains[/spoiler], but the basement is, again, not immersive and 'real' feeling. I think some of this is because of your use of copying objects and placing them in exact formations.. This very likely wouldn't be the case in a medieval city, even if it were at a Bluecoat training center.. Maybe if there were sections cut in the floor for barrels to fit in perfectly, but otherwise barrells, crates, etc. would probably be slightly off. I liked the sparring and archery areas, and the arches are nice (I would have made them a bit thicker to support the upper walkway better, but that's just me), but one runs into more problems in the main barracks.. Highly repetitive use of textures (same texture used for wall and floor with an only slightly different one used for the ceiling) made many areas more tedious to walk through than they had to be. The sleeping quarters suffered from placing excessive amounts of AI in them.. I know it's realistic, but when you play Thief you just don't expect to find a bunker full of sleeping guards (How could they sleep? Everyone snores! :eww:), nor a room with identical pairs of the same AI facing each other (with strangely similar bunk beds, each with a manual of procedures placed piously in the exact same spot on the covers), and what's more, a thief (or shady guard) patrolling the room! Once more, it would be realistic for each guard-in-training to have their manuals close at hand, but you're just making the copy & paste, copy & paste, repeat ad infinitum procedure that much more apparent (if you do use that technique to make the process go along faster, try to do it cleverly and hide it!). Back to the room of full-fledged snoring guards, Placing guards in bunk beds is a no no: placing them on the bottom bed is a no no and placing them on the top is a no no.. Unless you teleport them when they wake up they'll likely be stuck and this makes for one tough guard to blackjack.. I remember trying to swordfight with one of those guys.. He decimated my hp while I couldn't even reach him! Another gave me a not-so-gentle love pat when I was on the top bunk above him! In the real world one could easily (easier than in Thief, anyway..) hit someone over the head with a sock, even if they were sleeping in one of those confounded bunk beds. In Thief you'll most-likely either miss and hit the bed itself (alerting the guard, who will now become an angry, shielded-by-bunk-bed guard) or miraculously make contact with a body instead of wood (fat chance of that happening.. according to my calculations you'd sooner be pelted to death by a horde of dead chinooks while a wookie and sasquatch do the macarena and Bush proclaims every tuesday to be "World Peace Day" before that happens .. Well, let's just say I wouldn't wager your only daughter on those odds :cheeky:) .. Ehm. What I'm trying to say is there are some aspects that, with a little polishing, could make a top-notch level. I don't mean to be the harbinger of everything negative and ugly, but I just don't feel it right now, and when I don't feel a level, I usually stop playing it (you're probably going to say "well, shut up and go take your insults somewhere else"..), but I hope you just see this as me getting my criticisms out and perhaps balancing the continual state of flowery compliments here :laff: I don't mean to offend, insult, or discourage you from continuing your DromEd'ing (with my level of perfectionism/self-hate it will probably take five years before my first FM is released :joke:), I just wanted to mention some things that irked me (trust me, there usually isn't a level that doesn't have something that could be improved, and that includes the OMs too.. Don't gasp at me like that, no one's perfect!). A lot of times I build up all these criticisms or things I felt were done poorly in FMs, and I don't feel that I can let them out, but hopefully I offered enough reasons/suggestions to help you in the future.. Not that I know anything about FM design or .. Anything.. :( My 2 cents though..

My hopes you didn't take this the wrong way (gotta have a thick heart, yo)

deadman.

Spamlet on 13/3/2003 at 04:00

Hmm.

I wonder if he'll want to put that review on his site.

:eek:

deadman on 13/3/2003 at 04:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Spamlet
Hmm.

I wonder if he'll want to put that review on his site.

:eek:

He has reviews on his site? :D Yeah, a bit extreme perhaps.. But you people forced it on me with all this positiveness! I had to bring balance to the force.. <-- See, I'm just a Keeper (or Jedi :cheeky:) in training! It's all your fault! .. Heh..

deadman.

Thief13x on 13/3/2003 at 05:06

oh thank you very much for your FLAMING CRITISISM! and for tearing down the last possible thread of humanness left in my dieing body, you killer! DIE!

no jk. Actually i really do welcome critisism along with compliments, after all, only critisism will bring about improvement.

Ok, about the outside, i know its dull and that was somthing that was on my mind to do before i wrapped my mission up but i never really got to decorating the outside to extensivley. The trees were about as much time as i wanted to spend, and i hoped that the fountains did help slightly. The armory, the armory.....yeah, dull, very dull, infact originally i intended on making it into a maze about 10 times that size (i can't remmember why i wanted to do that now).:cool: :cool: Anyway, don't think all the time spent with that post you made is all going to waste because as of this afternoon, i have decided to redo alot of the mistakes and i have already received 2 or 3 pm's with some of the same flaws mentioned in them and i do have a list handy that i am writing stuff down to improve. I should have the (improved version) ready for download with alot of the flaws fixed. I do want this fm to be PERFECT because it is my first and last. Also, you should try fm building some time, its actually quiet gratifying:thumb: spepecally when i have nice people that critisize nicley and compliments. Thanks guys! look for my updated version soon!

Timmy

p.s shitty spelling = exhausted after work, sorry

Ottensen on 13/3/2003 at 06:37

Quote:

I think your problem is that you're trying to see and highlight the key and then grab it. That's not how I got it. I read in a note some where that it should be under Watts bed. I also found out from other missions that you can frob and grab something you can't see. It's like the program knows when it's highlighted even though you don't. So, just keep clicking the right mouse button as you move around the bed. Sooner of later you'll get it, and as soon as you do, there'll be a sound and it will appear in your inventory. This is how I got it. But like I said

Thanks, you learn something every day.
[SPOILER]It's actually under McKay's bed and just about visible against the pattern of the carpet.[/SPOILER]

Just need the document and to get out now. Where is it? [SPOILER]The scroll in the library seemed to fit the bill but nothing checked off.[/SPOILER]

deadman on 13/3/2003 at 07:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Thief13x
no jk. Actually i really do welcome critisism along with compliments, after all, only critisism will bring about improvement.

I'm glad you see it that way, and didn't feel the urge to become defensive or just tell me to 'fack off' :p I think the mistakes I notice in FMs wouldn't build themselves up so much in my mind if all I usually read about are compliments and kudos to FM authors. That is all good and well, but, as you said, for the most part one can't improve something without someone being brave and saying "it wasn't perfect" :cheeky: I still must apologize however, things always come out twisted when they exit my mouth.. As I said, the FM has possibilities, it's just that I didn't feel it when I played it this time around.

Ok, about the outside, i know its dull and that was somthing that was on my mind to do before i wrapped my mission up but i never really got to decorating the outside to extensivley. The trees were about as much time as i wanted to spend, and i hoped that the fountains did help slightly. The armory, the armory.....yeah, dull, very dull, infact originally i intended on making it into a maze about 10 times that size (i can't remmember why i wanted to do that now).:cool: :cool: Anyway, don't think all the time spent with that post you made is all going to waste because as of this afternoon, i have decided to redo alot of the mistakes

Quote:

and i have already received 2 or 3 pm's with some of the same flaws mentioned in them

Ahh, so the rest of the taffers who offer criticism are spineless worms eh? Ah-hah! The king of the worms, that's what they'll call me! The only meanie bold enough to speak in the open :thumb: :laff:

Quote:

I do want this fm to be PERFECT because it is my first and last. Also, you should try fm building some time, its actually quiet gratifying:thumb:

Trust me, I have tried editing/building, and it is quite invigorating, if annoying once you run into the many bugs/limitations. If I had more time and didn't have college to worry about I would be learning a lot more and making progress in my various little experiments/building sprees. I'll be crossing my fingers the editor for Thief III will be more user-friendly and much less buggy! Gah, I would probably just want to build pretty architecture anyway, but then I could always hand it on to an expert to finish up :idea: Nah, who would want to bother with my piece of shite?! Heh, good luck, I wish the best. :thumb:

deadman.

schma on 13/3/2003 at 07:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Ottensen

Just need the document and to get out now. Where is it?

[SPOILER]Check the locked footlocker in that room (officers sleeping hall)[/SPOILER]

- schma