Ombrenuit on 14/5/2009 at 08:46
Ever since Thief, I've been searching for books like it. I'm speaking along the lines of crime fiction in a fantasy setting, but it always seems to elude me. So I decided, hey why not? Sit down and write one yourself.
But what concerns me is exactly where the line lies between inspiration and plagiarism. For example, J.R.R. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings. You can write stories with wizards, dark lords, orcs, elves, goblins, hobbits--hell pretty much copy and paste and get away with it.
Copy and paste is not what I want to do, but I do want to create a world highly inspired by Thief with a thief as the main character.
So--yeah I realize this is a tough question--what constitutes going too far?
Naturally the setting would have it's own peculiarities, but is it plagiarism if it has
* A medieval / Victorian fusion steam-punk setting?
* Dark Noir atmosphere?
* A fanatical religious organization?
* A forbidden / haunted section of town? (No fire involved, it's sacred ruins)
* An animalistic group that lives outside the city? (Pagan like, but without the Trickster, Maw, etc.)
It's my wish to write something that is in a world of it's own, but inspired and reminiscent of Thief. In other words, do what many a fantasy author has done with Tolkein's work and explore it by making a world of their own, even if many of the same elements remain.
I'm just concerned that Thief's world is far too unique and that any attempt to write a book inspired by it will result in a lawsuit.
greypatch3 on 14/5/2009 at 15:43
I wouldn't worry too much. When you said "copy and paste," that's when plagiarism strikes. A lot of books have been written where people go, "Oh, this is just like Lord of the Rings." The problem becomes when people look at it and go, "Wait a minute, this IS Lord of the Rings!" It comes down less from "My work is inspired by something that I love" and more from "I'm too lazy to write a story, I'll just steal somebody else's exact work and claim I did it myself."
When it comes to intellectual property, Eidos owns the rights to the City, Garrett, Mechanists, Pagans, Hammers, and the like. They do not (and legally cannot) own the rights to ideas. So, if you have a city that is sort of medieval steampunk, yes, people may say "This sounds like those Thief games," but as long as you come up with enough differences of your own, you cannot really be sued. If settings and ideas were made copyright, nobody would ever write a story set in the Old West without being sued by Louis L'Amour, or write a murder without being sued by the Agatha Christie estate (I know they aren't the first to do so, I'm just giving examples).
So, no one will fault you if your story is similar in terms of setting and mood. What people will notice is if you have a thief fighting against two diametrically opposed religious factions while stealing strange, crystalline objects from abandoned cathedrals. Basing your idea off of something you like can be a great starting point, but after that, work on how your story DIFFERS from that material; after all, that's why people read, because if everything was exactly the same, it would be boring.
For example, the group that lives outside your town (or lower-case city): are they just Pagan-esque worshippers? If so, that may constitute plagiarism. But what if they were barbarians instead? Not religious, but just very, very ruthless and sadistic. And the fanatical organization within the city itself: do they wear a lot of red and carry hammers around? Then that's plagiarism. But imagine if they were more of a cult-like force, presenting a pleasant face to the public by day but sneaking around back alleys at night, and the occasional peasant disappears (and hey, maybe that's what explains the things wandering around the forbidden section of town). I mean, it's your story and you do what you like, but the above are just ways to consider what you have and maybe change it around a bit to make it more interesting (and remove concerns that you may simply be thieving [pun intended] ideas).
Jah on 14/5/2009 at 16:54
Quote Posted by greypatch3
When it comes to intellectual property, Eidos owns the rights to the City, Garrett, Mechanists, Pagans, Hammers, and the like. They do not (and legally cannot) own the rights to ideas.
I think the distinction there is actually quite fuzzy. You might be able to successfully argue plagiarism with clearly recognizable individual characters (such as Garrett or Karras), but as soon as you move to broader concepts, things become a lot more complicated. For example, to use the Lord of the Rings analogy, the fantasy race of "orcs" as we know them from most fantasy literature and video games has been taken pretty directly from Tolkien, yet Tolkien's estate doesn't have an exclusive copyright to the concept of orcs.
I believe that in order for someone to accuse you of plagiarism, they'd have to be able to prove that a) the way you're using a concept is identical to theirs, and b) this concept is their
original creation and not something they picked up from somewhere else. Claiming an exclusive intellectual copyright to "pagans" or "the Trickster", for example, would be difficult if not impossible, since both concepts have existed for centuries or even millennia before Thief was made, and one could easily argue that the inspiration for using them came from, say, native American folklore rather than a computer game. Similarly I'm not that convinced that the concept of "Mechanists" (religious fanatics who worship technology) is original enough that you could claim an exclusive copyright to it, or at least it would be pretty easy to get around it by calling your faction "Technologists", or something like that. Cities known simply as "The City" obviously appear in countless sources.
I would say that most individual concepts from the Thief universe could be borrowed or appropriated pretty easily without fear of legal trouble. But obviously the more things you borrow, the bigger is the risk that the overall picture begins to resemble the Thief universe too much, to the point where Eidos (assuming that they actually cared enough to be interested in litigation, which is an entirely different matter) could argue that the sum of the individual parts is similar enough to constitute plagiarism. The line between influence and plagiarism is pretty thin, and if such a case was taken to court, the process could be quite long and complicated.
greypatch3 on 14/5/2009 at 17:14
Quote Posted by Jah
I believe that in order for someone to accuse you of plagiarism, they'd have to be able to prove that a) the way you're using a concept is identical to theirs, and b) this concept is their
original creation and not something they picked up from somewhere else. Claiming an exclusive intellectual copyright to "pagans" or "the Trickster", for example, would be difficult if not impossible, since both concepts have existed for centuries or even millennia before Thief was made, and one could easily argue that the inspiration for using them came from, say, native American folklore rather than a computer game. Similarly I'm not that convinced that the concept of "Mechanists" (religious fanatics who worship technology) is original enough that you could claim an exclusive copyright to it, or at least it would be pretty easy to get around it by calling your faction "Technologists", or something like that. Cities known simply as "The City" obviously appear in countless sources.
You're right, the concept of the Hammers is based on an overly fanatical, Inquisition-like church, which has been around for a long time, and pagan sects have been around since the beginning of time. What I probably should've said is "trademarked" instead of copyrighted. Yes, you can do a church that vaguely resembles the make-up of the Hammers (rigid hierarchy, etc.), but utilizing the Hammers themselves or using a sect that is practically a carbon copy of the Hammers but without using the name Hammers (as in the example I used above), you'll run into trouble, since the intellectual property of "The Hammers" was a creation of LGS. They can't sue you for having a fanatical church, but they can sue you for copying THEIR fanatical church.
Jah on 14/5/2009 at 17:44
Quote Posted by greypatch3
What I probably should've said is "trademarked" instead of copyrighted.
That is indeed an important distinction. But as far as I know, a trademark is something that needs to be specifically registered; it's not automatic like intellectual property rights to one's work. Has Eidos officially registered the Hammers or other Thief concepts as trademarks? If they have, they would have a pretty strong case.
Quote Posted by greypatch3
Yes, you can do a church that vaguely resembles the make-up of the Hammers (rigid hierarchy, etc.), but utilizing the Hammers themselves or using a sect that is practically a carbon copy of the Hammers but without using the name Hammers (as in the example I used above), you'll run into trouble, since the intellectual property of "The Hammers" was a creation of LGS. They can't sue you for having a fanatical church, but they can sue you for copying THEIR fanatical church.
Again, I think this is a bit of a fuzzy area. Making your fanatical church too similar to the Hammers would be plagiarism, but exactly how much is too much? "Religious fanatics who wear red uniforms and carry hammers" is rather vague; as long as you didn't call them Hammers, I doubt that would be enough to qualify as plagiarism. What if you had them worship a god called Master Constructor? Would that make them too similar? I don't think there are any clear answers; in the end, it would probably be up to which side has better lawyers.
R Soul on 14/5/2009 at 18:07
I don't think name 'Pagan' is copyrighted, because it's a real religion.
Quote Posted by Jah
What if you had them worship a god called Master Constructor?
Are they Java programmers?
Solabusca on 15/5/2009 at 21:28
Quote Posted by R Soul
I don't think name 'Pagan' is copyrighted, because it's a real religion.
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism) Actually, it's more a blanket term.
.j.
Ombrenuit on 16/5/2009 at 11:37
Quote Posted by Jah
But obviously the more things you borrow, the bigger is the risk that the overall picture begins to resemble the Thief universe too much, to the point where Eidos (assuming that they actually cared enough to be interested in litigation, which is an entirely different matter) could argue that the sum of the individual parts is similar enough to constitute plagiarism
That's exactly what I was worried about. I originally wrote the setting out for a MUD I wanted to make inspired by Thief. But instead I came to fall more in love with my setting than studying programming so the setting is all I have--however that also meant that there was a
lot in common with the game there.
Some elements include things that aren't unique to Thief, which is why I was curious whether it is actually plagiarism to include those elements as well. For example, a secret society that observes the city (Hell any conspiracy)? A mysterious ancient civilization that died out leaving only their great ruins? (Like Roman ruins were to Europeans during the dark ages.)
But combine all these elements with "A Thief," religious zealots, steam-punk, and the supernatural, and man, I really feel a lawsuit coming right around the corner. At least I didn't want to add robots. Then I think that really would be too much.
However, I do feel like there is are definitely fans like me that want to get immersed in a similarly feeling universe to thief. I don't know of any good "crime fiction fantasy" books. And if you know of any, do tell!
NathanGPLC on 16/5/2009 at 17:19
Quote:
But combine all these elements with "A Thief," religious zealots, steam-punk, and the supernatural, and man, I really feel a lawsuit coming right around the corner. At least I didn't want to add robots. Then I think that really would be too much.
You could add robots and you'd still be fine. You _cannot_ copyright or trademark ideas. If you start copying the names or use dialogue ripped verbatim, THAT would be copyright infringement. However, take the computer game Arcanum; you can play a thief in a victorian/steampunk world where magic wars on technology, where you can build spider robots, and it's all perfectly legal. You can even have the religious zealots wield hammers, as long as you don't call them Hammerites.
Copyright covers only direct copies, not the ideas behind them. For example, White Wolf, the studio responsible for the World of Darkness, Vampire the Masquerade, and similar RPGs, tried to sue the makers of the film Underworld for copying their Vampires vs Werewolves in the Modern Era idea...and fell flat, because you can't copyright the idea of having both vampires and werewolves fighting each other in modern times, only one specific presentation thereof.
infinity on 16/5/2009 at 18:22
All of this Jargon is only important if one profits (ie sells) the story. Right? Isn't that what fan-fiction is?
(I can write a story about Garrett in The City, doing Thief things, but if I only post it on my site, and make no monetary gains, there's nothing wrong with it right?)
The OP sounds serious about 'publishing' which I am not.
