Somnus on 13/2/2011 at 23:01
Hey everyone. I've been following this forum for many years, ever since I first started playing Thief back in 2000. I remember hearing about the game from a friend, buying it used at EB Games, and instantly getting hooked. It was unlike any game I'd ever played (or have played since). And then, 2 weeks later, Thief 2 coincidentally came out. It was a great stroke of luck for me--not having to wait two years to get another full game of Thief to play.
Now we're all waiting to hear about the fourth Thief game. To be honest, I was surprised that it was even being made. I liked Deadly Shadows a lot (not as much as the first two, but it was still Thief), yet I never saw it as much of a financial success. So I was ecstatic when I found out that Eidos had revived the franchise and was actually developing a fourth game.
Now to my point. In another strange coincidence, I decided to visit TTLG for the first time in a couple of years, and it just so happened that Dan had made a big blog post on the same day. In his description of Thief IV, he anticipates that the game will be a linear, 3rd person game like Assassin's Creed (by linear, I assume he's referring to mission design). That statement got me thinking.
I've always enjoyed the Assassin's Creed games. Not for the stealth so much (it doesn't really exist), but for the platforming--the climbing, jumping, and freerunning that the game is probably best known for.
I thought: how awesome could a Thief game be if it borrowed those movement elements, and implemented them in a more free-form mission environment? After all, we already know Garrett has to be a pretty agile guy. He's a master thief. He can mantle onto sheer ledges, leap up high ladders in mere seconds, and steal people's wallets without them noticing. So in giving the player the ability to free run, we're not changing his character--we're representing him the way he should've been represented. Maybe his movement abilities aren't as cartoonish as Ezio's--perhaps more realistic--but the idea remains the same.
Imagine scaling a massive tower to access an open window, and then sneaking your down, stealing every valuable thing as you move along (like Angelwatch, but better)--or climbing up to the broken roof of an old cathedral, slipping into an opening and working your way through its ruined rafters as you struggle to keep yourself balanced above a long, fatal drop to the floor.
Imagine getting caught red-handed by guards in a bedroom, with your only escape route a nearby window--and diving through it to skip along nearby rooftops to safety. And imagine doing it all from a first-person perspective (with 3rd person still optional at the click of a button, eliminating the need for Deadly Shadows' clunky body awareness).
Such movement elements wouldn't limit the game in any way, but expand it beyond what even the originals accomplished. Suddenly, the designers' options for creating secret entrances, escape routes, puzzles, secret areas (for you fellow explorers out there), and multiple ways of beating a level increase dramatically. A place like Lord Bafford's mansion could be entered not only through the main door and a well, but through a window, or a balcony accessed by breaking into an adjacent building and getting on its roof, allowing you to make a leap for the balcony.
The only limit would be the player's imagination.
These kind of new movement physics could be further enhanced by creative designers. Maybe they bring back the rope arrow, and allow the player to keep hold of the rope as the arrow attaches to a wall, allowing the player to swing across chasms or city streets-- and even jump at the top of the swing to make acrobatic leaps onto ledges, etc.
Thief shouldn't try to be Assassin's Creed--AC is not a true stealth game--but I think the developers can make the game that much better by using some of AC's ideas.
What do you think?
Judith on 13/2/2011 at 23:49
I think that Thief fans would hate that.
This is problem has a broader scope (current gen console audience, etc.), but everything boils down to character abilities vs. player abilities. In Thief you are Garrett, you open the locks, you climb the ledges, you do all the hard work. The only character ability you're given is perfect hiding in the dark and even so you have to learn to put it in a good use.
In AC you get the set of "I win" buttons, where jumping and climbing is automatic and combat is relatively easy.
I hope Eidos devs will let us become a master thief rather than give us a master thief to control. There's little sense of accomplishment in the latter.
Bakerman on 14/2/2011 at 00:04
I think, like Judith is getting at, that a developer would have to walk a very fine line when including those sorts of abilities. (At least, if they care about what we think, which is a huge leap of logic, but let's assume for the sake of argument...)
As Judith said, AC basically removed all skill from what is in reality an incredibly difficult and dangerous art. I've played something like 6 hours into the original, and at this point the rooftops are basically just more streets, but higher up - it's no more difficult to navigate them than holding down the parkour button and pointing yourself in the direction you want to go. I sometimes jump down to the streets because it's just so much more interesting down there!
Also:
Quote:
(with 3rd person still optional at the click of a button, eliminating the need for Deadly Shadows' clunky body awareness)
We've covered this in-depth before on these forums (the memories still hurt...), but basically, having 3rd person
at all was the reason for T3's terrible FP feeling.
Now, taking that into consideration, I still do think it'd be possible to include parkour moves without resorting to making it a win-button. I've ven done some work on this (
http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/20581) myself. While that doesn't include hanging from ledges and stuff, which is pretty important if you want true AC-style platforming, it's been fairly easy to integrate so far. We'll see how it ends up when I've included animations and such.
I guess I'd tentatively support the idea - I thought AC did an amazing job with its platforming, especially with its animations. But the control scheme would be everything.
Somnus on 14/2/2011 at 02:43
Quote Posted by Judith
I think that Thief fans would hate that.
This is problem has a broader scope (current gen console audience, etc.), but everything boils down to character abilities vs. player abilities. In Thief
you are Garrett, you open the locks, you climb the ledges, you do all the hard work. The only character ability you're given is perfect hiding in the dark and even so you have to learn to put it in a good use.
In AC you get the set of "I win" buttons, where jumping and climbing is automatic and combat is relatively easy.
I hope Eidos devs will let us become a master thief rather than give us a master thief to control. There's little sense of accomplishment in the latter.
I hear what you're saying, and I agree to an extent. I should've been more specific about what differences I would want to see between AC and Thief, mainly that the free-running/parkour in Thief would require more skill, but still be intuitive enough to be fun (like AC). You have to keep in mind that this is a business, and adding a free-running feature would appeal to a built-in fanbase for a genre of games that AC currently has a monopoly on.
Maybe they could remove the auto-jumping feature from AC, requiring you time your jumps correctly, and hold down the jump button to mantle onto ledges like the old Thief games.
Also, I disagree a bit about "you" being Garrett--I don't remember digging through doors to pick locks, just switching between two different kinds of picks. I think where you let the players become a master thief isn't so much in Garrett's physical abilities as it is in cunning--how the player decides to react to different situations, their level judgement and patience, are all more important attributes for a master thief than whether he can climb onto a ledge or not. The game needs to be fun first and foremost, and challenging second (IMO from a business perspective).
jtr7 on 14/2/2011 at 08:18
I can't stand the thought of AC-climbing or parkour in Thief. I'd love dynamic climbing of dangling ropes, vines, chains, cables, guy wires, pipes, trees, trellises, and the ability to climb what children can climb without precision or advanced practiced athleticism on a playground or in the woods or on a mountain, without any artistic or acrobatic flair. Just make it easier (not automated so much or animated fancy) to climb what a guy in shape can climb, jump what can be jumped, reach up and grab what can be grabbed, and not have the character need to jump to step high, not be blocked by a window sill or molding, or a narrow beam, any kind of decorative fencing or railing, and so on. The Dark Mod has shown the way, and T4 could build on those concepts. It would be great if the world could respond to Garrett's weight and momentum mostly realistically.
And god, no platforming. Keep it organic and let the AIs and approach to the targets remain the only puzzle-like elements that every mission has, while never, or rarely, repeating a series of movements, even in one mission, let alone, across the game. The closest it should ever get to a platforming feel is during Thieves' Highway, sealed Old Quarter, and Lost City type terrain (however it's dressed up, and whatever the story), where there happens to be a a great deal of varied jumping over and around treacherous or tricky heights, but no automation. The Thief should never look cool in-game except by accident, based on player skill and nice controls and movement, so the player has true bragging rights.
I'd definitely love to have more dynamism in the world, and less attention given to the character model. Vertical navigation that is chosen by the player and not just the devs, where The Dark Mod and Dark Messiah has shown how much more the player can do if the model doesn't have to be animated to match the movement, like with AC, where the movement is automated to ensure things line up, built on a copy-paste principle of what is essentially building blocks, instead of an organic approach, where no two buildings may be alike, and geometry can be nudged an inch to increase or decrease challenge while adding variation as a bonus. I hope the world is not built of models, and if it is, I hope they can make thousands of them, and not have a handful used a hundred times, just rotated and merged, and I really hope they are not just facades we cannot enter. Increased accessibility and better movement to increase options for entering and exiting many more general types spaces than we've yet seen, is preferable to streets between buildings we can't enter, that all look like the same few models, all the same level of wear and use, because they are the same, for a mile in every direction.
However, a great number of the developers are former Ubisoft employees, and the General Manager came from there, too, so you may get your wish to some degree. In fact, I think T4 will be too much like AC for my taste.
Judith on 14/2/2011 at 16:19
Quote Posted by Somnus
I hear what you're saying, and I agree to an extent. I should've been more specific about what differences I would want to see between AC and Thief, mainly that the free-running/parkour in Thief would require more skill, but still be intuitive enough to be fun (like AC). You have to keep in mind that this is a business, and adding a free-running feature would appeal to a built-in fanbase for a genre of games that AC currently has a monopoly on.
Maybe they could remove the auto-jumping feature from AC, requiring you time your jumps correctly, and hold down the jump button to mantle onto ledges like the old Thief games.
Also, I disagree a bit about "you" being Garrett--I don't remember digging through doors to pick locks, just switching between two different kinds of picks. I think where you let the players become a master thief isn't so much in Garrett's physical abilities as it is in cunning--how the player decides to react to different situations, their level judgement and patience, are all more important attributes for a master thief than whether he can climb onto a ledge or not. The game needs to be fun first and foremost, and challenging second (IMO from a business perspective).
But do you realize that implementing a free running system like in AC would be quite problematic? Since we're talking about an FPS game, you'll be sticking your nose in a wall for most of the time. That's hardly a fun part. It would be great to see something like Mirror's Edge system though, maybe except for those parts where you can bounce off walls in Prince of Persia style. Anyway that's how it should be done, because it's rewarding but quite difficult.
As for the player-character identification, it all depends on what feature you pick, and from which game. In T2 your perceptiveness, environment assessment and the ability to reach alternative routes with Garrett's physical abilities really count (T3 is more forgiving in that matter). In T2 you have lockpics combination, in T3 there's a lock combination. In all those aspects players can fail because of their ineptitude. So basically they have Garrett's ability to hide in the dark and his tools, but the rest is completely up to them.
And, from a real business perspective, the game needs to sell. First and foremost :)
Somnus on 14/2/2011 at 17:23
Quote Posted by jtr7
I can't stand the thought of AC-climbing or parkour in Thief. I'd love dynamic climbing of dangling ropes, vines, chains, cables, guy wires, pipes, trees, trellises, and the ability to climb what children can climb without precision or advanced practiced athleticism on a playground or in the woods or on a mountain, without any artistic or acrobatic flair. Just make it easier (not automated so much or animated fancy) to climb what a guy in shape can climb, jump what can be jumped, reach up and grab what can be grabbed, and not have the character need to jump to step high, not be blocked by a window sill or molding, or a narrow beam, any kind of decorative fencing or railing, and so on. The Dark Mod has shown the way, and T4 could build on those concepts. It would be great if the world could respond to Garrett's weight and momentum mostly realistically.
And god, no platforming. Keep it organic and let the AIs and approach to the targets remain the only puzzle-like elements that every mission has, while never, or rarely, repeating a series of movements, even in one mission, let alone, across the game.
The closest it should ever get to a platforming feel is during Thieves' Highway, sealed Old Quarter, and Lost City type terrain (however it's dressed up, and whatever the story), where there happens to be a a great deal of varied jumping over and around treacherous or tricky heights, but no automation. The Thief should never look cool in-game except by accident, based on player skill and nice controls and movement, so the player has true bragging rights.
I'd definitely love to have more dynamism in the world, and less attention given to the character model. Vertical navigation that is chosen by the player and not just the devs, where The Dark Mod and Dark Messiah has shown how much more the player can do if the model doesn't have to be animated to match the movement, like with AC, where the movement is automated to ensure things line up, built on a copy-paste principle of what is essentially building blocks, instead of an organic approach, where no two buildings may be alike, and geometry can be nudged an inch to increase or decrease challenge while adding variation as a bonus. I hope the world is not built of models, and if it is, I hope they can make thousands of them, and not have a handful used a hundred times, just rotated and merged, and I really hope they are not just facades we cannot enter. Increased accessibility and better movement to increase options for entering and exiting many more general types spaces than we've yet seen, is preferable to streets between buildings we can't enter, that all look like the same few models, all the same level of wear and use, because they are the same, for a mile in every direction.
However, a great number of the developers are former Ubisoft employees, and the General Manager came from there, too, so you may get your wish to some degree. In fact, I think T4 will be too much like AC for my taste.
The bolded text is exactly how I feel. I don't want Thief to become a platforming game, either. I just think the game, particularly its level design, could benefit enormously from platforming-like features. The originals already had them to some extent, so it's not like this idea is revolutionary or anything. AC is obviously going for a more superhero-like feel than Thief, but nonetheless some of the ideas are still relevant just because they were so much fun.
OTOH, if I want to play Assassin's Creed, I'll play Assassin's Creed. I still want Thief to be a stealth game first and foremost, because AC clearly isn't. I see that the main fear among Thief fans would be the developers turning Garrett into a reckless action hero, and I definitely don't want that.
Part of what made Thief so engrossing was that you didn't take the reins of a superhuman. In fact, the player should feel vulnerable to some extent at all times, which is the opposite of AC where the player feels practically invincible. But I do think he should be slightly more acrobatic than he was in the first 3 games--and I get the feeling that the designers would've considered that route to some degree if the technology could've handled it back then, especially in missions like the Bonehoard, Life of the Party, etc.
We can only hope they decided to revive the franchise to build on its loyal cult fanbase, as well as take advantage of some of AC's fans (I think it's inevitable that the game will imitate AC on at least some gameplay level; AC's commercial success is probably why Eidos brought the franchise back--AC definitely borrowed from Thief on more than a few levels, especially character design and the general atmosphere of some of the missions, like the abandoned pope's residence in Brotherhood).
No doubt they will at least throw hardcore players some sort of bone. It wouldn't make sense for them to ignore us if they intend to reboot the franchise. Of course, some of us will buy the game no matter what, and they know that (and I'm probably guilty of being one of those people, unless I think Thief looks ruined before it comes out).
Quote Posted by Judith
But do you realize that implementing a free running system like in AC would be quite problematic? Since we're talking about an FPS game, you'll be sticking your nose in a wall for most of the time. That's hardly a fun part. It would be great to see something like Mirror's Edge system though, maybe except for those parts where you can bounce off walls in Prince of Persia style. Anyway that's how it should be done, because it's rewarding but quite difficult.
As for the player-character identification, it all depends on what feature you pick, and from which game. In T2 your perceptiveness, environment assessment and the ability to reach alternative routes with Garrett's physical abilities really count (T3 is more forgiving in that matter). In T2 you have lockpics combination, in T3 there's a lock combination. In all those aspects players can fail because of their ineptitude. So basically they have Garrett's ability to hide in the dark and his tools, but the rest is completely up to them.
And, from a real business perspective, the game needs to sell. First and foremost
It would be pretty difficult to implement from a FP perspective. That's why I suggested the optional 3rd person camera. I understand why Thief fans are opposed to the idea, but the reality is that you probably need it in a video game if climbing is going to be a major feature, as I anticipate it will be.
I think it can be done from a FP perspective for sure, it would just make navigation (and the programmers' jobs) more difficult--maybe you have to come up with a way to push the camera a few inches back when the player attaches to a wall, so they can look up and down more easily. And the body should probably be invisible during FP to simulate the ability to look over your shoulder, etc.
And you're right, in Thief 3 the lockpicking did require some skill, especially to do it quickly while under pressure. But if they make it a "real" stealth game, where the player isn't walked through the level by the designers and has multiple options for accomplishing the same goal (which should still include violence--otherwise where's the satisfaction in outsmarting your adversaries?), then some skill will be required to feel like a master thief regardless of Garrett's physical abilities... unless they give him ninja-like combat prowess, which would ruin the game as far as Thief fans are concerned.
Also, the game won't sell if people don't think it's fun. Well, it might, but they won't get a franchise going. :) Let's just hope they can keep the game smart and make enough money to satisfy their business needs/greed at the same time.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
As Judith said, AC basically removed all skill from what is in reality an incredibly difficult and dangerous art. I've played something like 6 hours into the original, and at this point the rooftops are basically just more streets, but higher up - it's no more difficult to navigate them than holding down the parkour button and pointing yourself in the direction you want to go. I sometimes jump down to the streets because it's just so much more interesting down there!
The first game isn't nearly as good as the last two, but maybe that's another discussion. I would give ACII and Brotherhood a try--especially the secret location missions (where you're after treasure, not killing someone)--before reaching a final conclusion about AC. I found those missions in particular to be pretty challenging, especially the ones where stealth is an option. Ghosting is very difficult, but not impossible, in those missions, and I felt that it did require some skill.
Obviously the game is much more simplified than Thief and we wouldn't want that kind of feel for what should be more an in-depth stealth experience. If you make the player too powerful, you take away that sense of vulnerability that drives the player to seek out stealth and ingenuity as their first choice for solving problems. The parkour should be part of that, but it needs to be less powerful than AC. How much less powerful is a hard line to walk, as AC seems strictly designed with mindless fun in mind, while Thief is as much a puzzle game as it is stealth action.
Judith on 14/2/2011 at 22:35
I'm not a fan of automatic 1st/3rd person switching as well. And you don't need TPP for climbing sections if the idea is implemented correctly: again see Mirror's Edge. You might have a problem with achieving the effect of "accessible parkour" though.
As for the whole AC series, I think they started with wrong concepts of core story & gameplay and built next games on the top of that instead of trying to improve the basics.
You know, the idiotic concept of playing a game where you play a game in Animus (reduces immersion to 0); the whole player-hud relation, where you had to do all the repetitive stuff to uncover the map; the simplified concept of stealth, where you are dressed as the most recognizable character in the game and armed to the teeth, but you can sit on a bench or bow your head and you're invisible, etc.
ACII has it all too, but it adds more activities for you to perform, so you can play something more like Assassin Tycoon, amass your wealth, build improvements in your town, etc. Haven't played AC:B but I probably won't do that. I think 2 times is enough for me to see that those games are just not for me :)
New Horizon on 14/2/2011 at 23:01
I can't stand how companies who say they are going to make a sequel to a respected series really don't seem to have any interest in making a game that reflects what the series was built on. Well, I'm sure in their minds they believe they're being respectful, but they seem far more motivated to make a collage of a bunch of currently popular games, and slap the franchises name on it.
If Eidos is going to make a Thief game, I hope they have the guts to make a real Thief game...and then put the creative resources into some clever marketing, instead of tossing out a cookie cutter game that they can easily market with the usual plug and play marketing techniques.
jtr7 on 14/2/2011 at 23:13
I hope the emphasis would not be on fight and acrobatic flight, but on sneaking, slinking, creeping, and a strong emphasis on light and shadow, infiltration, evasion, avoidance, not being seen or heard, not fighting but the systems in place allow for getting out of tricky spots when a mistake was made and the player got cornered, which can be used to play as a combatant, yet awkward and a with a high sense of vulnerability, with consequences and fiction to discourage scrapping. No forced established playstyles, but offering challenge for all of them. Anything added to movement should reflect a guy hauling a lot of stuiff around who doesn't want to get caught, yet moving well for it, and no encumbrance system, just a hint that he would be light on his feet if he wasn't weighted down. He should have the most excellent motor control in his hands, and the greatest strength in his upper body, for grabbing and holding and mantling and reaching, not leaping and spinning.
