Somnus on 26/5/2011 at 02:48
Quote Posted by Alic
Wouldn't giving parkour abilities to Garrett eliminate the need for stealth? Garrett has limited mobility, which is why he must focus on strategically travelling and remaining undetected. It kind of spoils the fun if you dont have to worry about being stealthy, you can just jump around a bit to get where you want to go. (although the existing thief games do kind of have this problem to an extent...in a lot of instances you can run away and they will just forget about you after a couple of minutes. That should be improved in thief 4)
In my opinion, Garrett's existing abilities should be improved i.e. manteling etc. and I think the ability to hang/shimmy from ledges would be decent
I don't see how parkour abilities would eliminate the need for stealth. Would you care to elaborate?
They aren't going to help you a whole lot in enclosed areas like hallways.
I also think that a master thief having limited mobility doesn't make a lot of sense from a realistic perspective. Cunning is certainly his best trait, but I think LGS did intend for Garrett to be able to do things that average people can't. (He definitely climbs ladders faster than I can).
Again, not saying that he should become Ezio or anything like it, but improving Garrett's athletic ability a bit could enrich the level design without changing Thief's style of gameplay.
In any case, the suggestions SE provided above are much more similar to what I'd want to see in a Thief game. I don't want to see automated jumping or the ability to cling to flat surfaces like in AC.
For those suggesting that these sort of things weren't present in original games, I think you're very wrong. There was a considerable amount of climbing, mantling, and jumping in missions like LotP, The Lost City, Down in the Bonehoard, even Cragscleft and the Sword. In fact, I'd argue that it was a major part of Thief 1's level design that seemed to get trimmed back in Thief 2.
Swinging with rope arrows would be one of the first ideas I'd toy with if I were a developer. The very first idea would be to bring rope arrows themselves back. Their absence seemed to eliminate a huge amount of climbing/mantling from TDS, which I found disappointing even though I still enjoyed the game. A mission like the Clocktower in TDS could've been a heart-attack fest with rope arrows and SE's idea of improved mantling, if they designed it right.
Expanding on SE's idea a bit, I think that rather than have the climbing points break or become unreliable, you could just design the amount of time Garrett can hold on to one around his stamina. Although it would take a lot of work, showing his fingers slowly slipping or something similar could give the player some feedback that could be implemented in any environment, rather than loose stone or rotting wood, etc. Not sure if I clearly understood what SE was suggesting, but that's what I got out of it. Something like that could improve Garrett's abilities while still making him appear human, which is what I think most Thief fans want.
Thirith on 26/5/2011 at 13:58
Quote Posted by Somnus
Expanding on SE's idea a bit, I think that rather than have the climbing points break or become unreliable, you could just design the amount of time Garrett can hold on to one around his stamina. Although it would take a lot of work, showing his fingers slowly slipping or something similar could give the player some feedback that could be implemented in any environment, rather than loose stone or rotting wood, etc.
Something like this would be perfect for acoustic feedback, having Garrett groan with the strain, and then combine it with him shaking with exertion just before he falls off.
jtr7 on 27/5/2011 at 00:42
Taking the bow-draw fatigue concept and applying it to more types of interactions would be welcome.
Heavy lifting and a sense of the exertion (minus loot and equipment encumbrance, of course) would be a nice touch. None of it's critical, but I would hope more time would be spent on things like this than achievements and crap.
SubJeff on 28/5/2011 at 12:14
I'm not suggesting that all climbing points be unreliable, only those that you use the climbing claws with - those parts of walls that have no climbing points and which you therefore bypass by using climbing claws. It's just so the claws don't turn you into spiderman.
catbarf on 28/5/2011 at 23:32
Having just completed Assassin's Creed, I figured I'd weigh in. Personally I'd rather not see AC-style freerunning in Thief, as I feel like it's against the sort of gameplay the Thief games are about. Garrett shouldn't be able to run, jump, and vault across rooftops to escape guards- his skills should be focused on avoiding guards in the first place. Now, better dynamic climbing I'd be all for, as Garrett's reasonably athletic and should be capable of such things. But it's one thing to, say, mantle onto a rooftop and then climb down to a window, and another to make a flying leap onto the rooftop from another building and then swing down to the window in one fast, fluid motion.
Basically, I'd like a new Thief game to have more freedom of movement, but not necessarily parkour.
Tomi on 29/5/2011 at 00:01
I've played both AC and AC2 and enjoyed them, especially AC2, and think that Thief could certainly borrow some ideas from those games. Like catbarf pointed out, the emphasis of Thief should be on avoiding enemies, but some more athletic moves wouldn't hurt, as long as they don't go too over the top with them (so no wall running, spiderman-like climbing skills, or leaps of faith, please). Let's face it, movement in the all three Thief games so far can be pretty clumsy, the only thing that can make you feel a tiny bit agile is that the guards are even more clumsy and most of all stupid - they won't be able to catch you if you just climb on a table!
I wonder how it all would work from the first person view though, but if there's going to be a third person view, then I'm all for some slightly-unrealistic-but-not-too-over-the-top action.
Bakerman on 29/5/2011 at 08:39
Quote Posted by Tomi
as long as they don't go too over the top with them (so no wall running
Personal nitpick: a wall-run is a pretty darn basic move, as far as freedom of movement goes. I've seen moderately athletic people with no experience in parkour do a successful wallrun above their reach height first try. I guess most people's perception puts it firmly in the realm of AC-style leaping between buildings, but I really don't think it'd be that out-of-place for a cat burglar.
But other than that, I do agree that avoidance is more important than escape.
Beleg Cúthalion on 29/5/2011 at 18:53
Is wall-running the same for both of you? Running towards a wall, doing one or two steps up to mantle over it is indeed rather easy, but that Prince-of-Persia-thing with running along a wall (which is rather pointless IMHO cause it doesn't get you anywhere...new) is indeed out of the question.
SubJeff on 29/5/2011 at 23:22
Quote Posted by Tomi
Let's face it, movement in the all three Thief games so far can be pretty clumsy
Or lets not, because this is certainly not true of Thief 1 and 2 - the movement in AC is faaaaar more clumsy. Movement is pretty tight in T1 and 2. Think about it; you move slowly but with great precision. 3rd person animation, like in Thief 3 and AC, necessitates much more raw movements.
Tomi on 30/5/2011 at 01:26
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Is wall-running the same for both of you?
I was indeed thinking of something more like PoP-style wall running, and while there's not same kind of wall running in AC, some of the moves are just way over the top and too unrealistic. The protagonist seems to have endless stamina, frictionless climbing boots and supernatural strength.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Or lets not, because this is certainly not true of Thief 1 and 2 - the movement in AC is faaaaar more clumsy.
I have to (kind of :p) disagree with this, but I know what you mean. For example I've always found climbing/mantling to be a bit hit and miss in T1 and T2 - sometimes it works like you expect it to and sometimes it doesn't, and you fall off the roof and to your death. Rope arrows and (especially) ladders can be very frustrating to use sometimes for the same reason. The movement is of course more
precise in a way, but with mantling for example it can be very unforgiving.
In Assassin's Creed, on the other hand, the architecture is built around the gameplay. All the blocks and walls and objects seem to be of some standard size, so that the character animations fit and the movement
looks smooth. This of course leads to a more "automated" kind of movement system, but unless they take it too far and make the whole control system too restricting and simple, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. At least in AC when there's a climbable wall in front of you, you always get to the other side in one way or another without a problem. In T1/T2, if you have a wall that's too low to climb but too high to jump over, you may get stuck and that's just frustrating.
So, both control systems have their own advantages and disadvantages. Thief gives you greater freedom of movement, but that can also make performing some simple moves annoyingly difficult. In Assassin's Creed the movement is more restricted and more automated, but it works.
Having said that, I wouldn't like to see a movement system that is identical to Assasin's Creed in Thief 4... but then again, I wouldn't want it to be like in the old Thief games either. Some sort of a compromise between those two could be the best solution - I want to have greater freedom of movement, but I don't want to play a clumsy thief who can't climb over a 3-foot wall and who falls down ladders and breaks his skull. Most of all, I want Thief 4 to be built with first person view in mind, and I'm afraid that can make advanced climbing and cool acrobatic moves difficult to implement.
