Tony on 12/6/2005 at 10:40

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I do not speak Japanese.

Now, on to dispell some myths. Firstly, iron ore in medieval Japan was really, really crappy. Much of it came in a form like sand, or from sand itself. Secondly, folded steel is not necessarily superior steel. In fact, folded steel is inferior to the higher quality non-folded steel. The reason Japanese steel was folded was to evenly distribute the impurities. If this was not done, the impurities would cluster and form weak spots. Folding does not remove the impurities. In fact, folding good quality steel actually weakens it. Good quality steel not only does not need folding, but it is stronger than folded steel. High quality unfolded steel is best, folded steel is second best, and low quality unfolded steel is the worst.

Secondly, the katana was very rigid. It was not flexible like European swords. It was actually thicker and heavier than the average antique European hand and a half, by about half a pound (average antique katana is four pounds, average antique hand and a half is three and a half pounds). The blade was fairly fragile due to the rigidity, and in traditional Japanese form touching blades was a mistake, just like being cut. Also, katanas are nearly useless for thrusting.

Overall, there is absolutely no reason that people should consider a katana to be a superior sword to European swords. The only cause for this cultural phenomenon is the rise of the "Japanophile." Ninety nine point nine percent of all people get all of their "knowledge" of Japanese swords and swordsmanship from Japanese cartoons - which are, without exception, wrong.

Now, onto misconceptions about European swords. European swords were neither heavy, nor clumsy, nor blunt. Swords have never been used for "bashing through" or cutting plate armour. Indeed, as plate armour became prevailent, European swords became very pointy and more like skewers than swords. Fully armoured swordplay is more like wrestling than what we see in movies; period manuals heavily rely on moves involving grapples and throws. The common technique for piercing the joints of plate armour is called "half-swording," and is done by grasping the blade of the sword roughly halfway up with one hand and holding the hilt with the other hand. The wielder then proceeds to try to wedge the point into a joint or a weak spot, particularly the face or groin.

Before plate armour, swords were optimised for cutting flesh. Wooden shields were used more than any other sort of protection, although mail was used by those who could afford it. DarthMRN mentioned that most deaths at the Battle of Hastings were by leg cuts. This is because the mail hauberk standard at the time only reached to slightly below the waist. The leggings were not yet common. Even mail, which is weaker than plate, is not deliberately targeted, although a man wearing mail with no padding is almost as vulnerable as a man with no mail. Test cuts on mailled and unpadded targets have shown that the cut is still made, but stopped before cutting much.

This part will surprise nearly everyone. The sword was actually the least effective battlefield weapon. Movies like "King Arther" portray swords as the final word in combat. This is not so! The spear is actually the most effective weapon in both a battle and a duel. A sword should only be for backup and special circumstances, like fighting indoors or something like that.

Lastly, the term "chain mail" is a misnomer. "Mail" is derived from "maille," a word meaning "chain." "Chain mail" means "chain of chain." You will never find a period source using this term.

DarthMRN, you are from Norway. Your traditional culture is one that is far more rich and historically significant than Japan's. Indeed, the finest swords in the world were Viking blades made with Wootz steel, replicated now in fashion by pattern welding (which is not the same). Norse, Scandinavian, Danish, and Finnish Vikings played a large part in shaping our world in the older days. Why do you betray your culture to join the massed wave of the many who obsess over all things Japanese for no other reason than that it is crammed into their minds by television? Why, the entire historical significance of Japan can be summed up thus: they started a war to perform atrocities, then they got nuked. Now they make cars and bad cartoons.

DarthMRN on 12/6/2005 at 12:35

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Okay, first off, I don't watch a lot of Japanese cartoons. Very few actually, so whatever fault I have does not come from there. Indeed, the stuff I do know of this comes from documentaries and books for the most part.

Secondly, you seem to have superior knowledge in these matters, but this is the first time I hear anything about that crappy quality of Japanese steel was the reason for folding it. You will have to excuse if I take that one with a big pinch of salt.
I have read several good articles on the matter. But since I cannot find those articles at the moment, I am forced to take your word for it. Japanese blades were quite flexible to my knowledge. Again, I cannot presently back it up.

And regarding the spear thing, you have never heard of Miyamoto Musashi, have you? Or maybe you believe him to be just a gross exaggeration.

Vikings are boring. And if their blades really were superior, then I will seriously have to consider committing Hara-kiri...

Nice link there, Hecatæus. If you have more, keep them coming.

S_Hole on 13/6/2005 at 14:35

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shut up about the fucking swords already
start a new thread on them - this one is for the amateur film project(s)




i REALLY want to see a proper thief film happen, but the current state of things don't really seem too promising
i'm curious of what led to the previous ones' demise
and there's no real word on any other projects either
i'd hate to start a redundant project

people can already do quite nice cutscenes (cosas, calendra's *, some single FMs)
is there no desire to do a shortfilm together, or what gives?

godismygoldfish on 13/6/2005 at 20:02

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I'll be posting up a full thread on my film project (it's post-mortem to be more precise :erg: ) once the trailer is done, and I will be creating the cutscenes for the dark mod's campaign (partially from footage that was to be used for this film, as well as a bunch of new stuff)

Mine was also intended to be full-length, about and hour and a half running time. I figured it would take me three years to complete it, and the fact would remain i could never really do much with it, especially as i could spend that time focusing on films where i have total control and don't have to fear being shut down. (i also have film school to focus on, and that takes priority)

EDIT: Sorry, it should be made clear that my film is completely seperate from Pnowak's. His is still coming.

Aspirin on 14/6/2005 at 05:59

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It seems like a small misunderstanding: godismygoldfish has ended his project. We continue with our Thief movie project. Read thread from start... ;)

Web pages comes quickly.