snowcap21 on 15/2/2008 at 12:41

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You seem to have made some very special experiences with readers. :D And I can understand that it can be maddening when they can't accept that there's a difference between their interpretation and your intention. But as long as a reader keeps his interpretation limited to the work and doesn't think to know, what you wanted to say with it, I don't see a justification for claiming that your understanding of the characters is closer to "reality" that that of your readers. Because there is no reality, there's just what is written.

But that's an old discussion about art in general.

jtr7 on 15/2/2008 at 21:18

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Two different realities. One is the birth-place, the origin, and it is vast, and the writer is tasked with putting what he/she imagines into words to share with others, and not all of it is put into words. The other is an interpretation, a translation from one mind to another, built upon the fraction of the imagined world the writer has put into words. I don't deny what's happening in the reader's mind, I accept it, and hope they have a rich experience. I just don't like them telling me what I meant. I don't think it'll ever get as bad as what's described in Stephen King's Misery. :wot: Heh heh.

In my Thief-world-based fanfic, the setting is removed from The City by thousands of miles, beyond the Esse range. This way, I'm only inspired, and rarely hindered by the canon. Because I started creating my story back when I had only played TMA (firstly), and TDP, and TDS was only a glimmer of hope shrouded in the grief over LGS's demise, the story begins between TDP and TMA, and covers nearly a decade forward. The empire is ruled by a noble family of a king and queen, the heir-apparent prince and his princess wife, and their son. Their lands neighbor other lands with their own governments, one of which is the queen connected to The City, whom we only know of through The City's "Thieves' Guild's Creed". The events Garrett is involved with have ripple effects across the continents, in small ways and significant ways, creating changes as historical events can and do, even if they are fairly isolated. Before I knew the story of TDS, I already had set up a Dark Age of my own, where magic wasn't available anymore or intermittently so, and magic-users struggled to regain their abilities. Those who depended on them for their abilities become vulnerable, and many die. The enemies of those who were held back by the skilled magic-users move in and take over. I use the crafts, the factions major and minor, the crystals, and so forth.

jtr7 on 16/2/2008 at 00:34

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Yeah, I let readers make their own choices. I've learned that the most offensive and corrupt interpretations of anybody's work are made by people who are generally deranged.:D I'd be horrified if someone said my work inspired them to commit a criminal act, but there would be nothing I could do, and I would know the truth behind my work, and stand behind it.

Keep in mind, I'm not being negative, I'm only referring to negative things.

I read authors' talk boards and they try to let the reader make their own mind up about what the writing means, what the themes are, what's between the lines, but the writers do get angry over some of it and they admit they are biting their tongue. Generally, the readers think their rights extend beyond what is reasonable. There's the author responses of "I'm glad the story meant so much to you. It really makes my day!", and then there's the "Whatever floats your boat, but float it elsewhere, please."

When I have been asked to critique a written work, I have to go through stages.
I have my first impression, which is chaotic because I have to adjust to the style and mute any preconceptions. I'm very aware of my biases and try to mute them as well, but it's very hard. I also weigh what the writer has asked of me, versus my opinion of what they should change. A writer should finish a story--if possible--before any major rethinking, but there are exceptions to that.
I try to see if the writer is aware of a weakness or not, and if they are aware of it, I've just let them know it's a problem I see, and I trust them to make the choices. I'm no professional editor, so I cannot provide that level of insight.
One thing that reduces my effectiveness as a critic, when I'm shown a work in progress, is that I get used to elements that perhaps are not as strong or balanced as they should be, so I have to step back and prepare myself to look at the work differently. Most of the time, I'm willing to let go of elements that I really enjoyed, but there are those that seem just too damn good to waste, but I'll still let them go if there's a strong and honest argument against it.

Digital Nightfall on 20/2/2008 at 17:34

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Good luck xxcoy! :)

I often find myself intentionally adding in a little 'make up your own mind' tone to the things I am writing. I leave things out, let things be open for interpretation, because I want the reader to decide for themselves what did or did not happen, or even why. But I also try to never let that interfere with the building of the story. I can't be intentionally misleading or confusingly cryptic if it's going to make the reader feel betrayed. While some things add layers of reader investment, others can put them off by making them feel like they've been tricked or mislead. I try to avoid 'gotcha!' plot twists, lame meaningless resolutions with no sense of closure or, even worse, sections that explain in bland detail exactly what happened or what's going on which removes all mystery or personal investment from the story.

Especially in real life, even if you get the 'whole' story, there's always certain sides or aspects of it which you will simply never know.

Here's an example. jtr7 may want to skip this one if he wants to find out what happens by just reading it... I don't know if he'll be able to resist though!

[SPOILER]
I am working with a character who's very nature is that he's possibly untrustworthy. The goal is to never actually reveal how trustworthy he actually is. The trick is to allow the reader to choose sides on the issue, "yes, trust him, I have a good feeling about him!" or "no, you fools, he's going to stab you in the back! watch out!" and then allow both people to maintain this argument to the bitter end. I can never just come out and say yes, this guy seems shady but he's never going to break a promise, nor can I ever point out in plain detail that yes, he's a betrayer. The problem is to keep things fresh. Keep providing evidence to support both theories, but never too strong in one direction. If the reader ever goes, "aw crap, I was wrong about this guy," then there may be some payoff to the investment, but then it's all over for them. Of course this may be frustrating to readers who just want to know for sure, but then the challenge is how to make them feel like that's happened, while still leaving the door open. It's this tricky kind of juggling act that I enjoy both as a writer and a reader.
[/SPOILER]

Digital Nightfall on 28/2/2008 at 02:57

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I've managed to get a considerable amount written [on the COT rewrite] in the past few weeks. At the moment the story is resting at roughly 300,000 words, which at standard paperback print would come to around 600 pages (the original COT was 140,000 words). I'm at chapter 11 of the rewrite, which is about the same as chapter 16 in the original, though it is getting quite hard to compare (many events in the original that happened in the 20s chapters have already happened).* The original had 24 chapters. 11 is to 16 as 16.5 is to 24, so if we continue the silly math that comes to 900 pages total. I'd feel pretty silly if I wrote that much. Let's see if I can wrap it up without getting to that insane number. :thumb:

* The Lytha/Ghost plotline in the original, which was considerably shorter than the Nightfall/Jyre plotline, reached its point of conclusion as far as the original was concerned by about chapter 8 of the rewrite. Everything that comes after that, and there has been and will be a considerable chain of events, can be considered a continuation rather than a rewrite; basically COT2 material. So if anyone is still annoyed that I am doing this and not COT2, well I'm meeting you half way. 'sides, Lytha/Ghost weren't even going to be in COT2 at all, so this is actually much better!

(Disclaimer: I don't actually care how long it ends up being. It will be as long as it needs to be to tell the story and I realise, though I have a hard time practicing it, that shorter is better... at least when it comes to fanfics.)