Constance on 15/1/2013 at 17:26

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Indeed. But that probably would be very short. I mean, unless it takes like 15 purses to buy food for a day xD

Constance on 15/1/2013 at 18:02

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Woops. Looks like I misread. Well then, it may be interesting indeed, though I still think he shouldn't have too much stuff. In particular, if he has lockpicks, then, considering what has been said, perhaps they should have a limited number of uses and look different from those provided by Farkus, to reflect the "low quality" aspect.

DiMarzio on 19/1/2013 at 18:26

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I would like to see Garrett as a young, unskillful and desperate thief, picking unwary pedestrians' pockets, some shop burglaries by night and lots of failure and running for his live, maybe some jailtime, nothing glamorous. The main point is that IMO Garrett was no master thief after his training, he would've been just struggling to live. So no moving easily unseen and unheard, no breaking in any mansions or other highly guarded places not to mention lock picking, safe cracking, running unheard etc. No swimming in money or expensive gear.

This would of course make it a really hard game, but I think every one of us thinks the Thief series is too easy once you get really into it. It would actually make an interesting scenario, where Garrett starts from the bottom and gains more skills and buys better equipment after every mission and moves up to harder missions. Garrett would also be just some random guy at the start, so no worry if he's seen, no one would remember him, but as time proggresses he would become the famous master thief he is in TDP. After all he is FAMOUS in TDP, the Hammerites and the city watch recognize him on sight, this means that he must've been witnessed a couple of times in his past. It would make a nice hook in the plot: messing up, getting witnessed/caught, wanted status/jail time.

I would also like to see some references to the upcoming "sequels" (the main series) and explanations to future events, eg.
* how he met his fence(s) and other NPCs (Basso and his sister and other fellas in mission2, his landlord (after all he knows where Garrett lives but keeps it secret, so he had to be a very trustful friend), etc)
* his first encounter with the thieves' guild and why he decided not to become a member.
* a major theme could be why he chose solitude and became such a lonely wolf, trusting no one, even the Keepers who could have accepted him as a member. Some trauma of a past event perhaps?
* his first encounter with the undead, and the fear and trauma it might involve
* etc, nothing else comes to my mind, I haven't played the originial missions for a long time.


I liked the idea of "precursor" devices of TDP's high tech ones! I think Garrett should have no Sword for a long time, they are really expensive weapons.

But in the end, this sounds like a nice project! Just make it faithful to the already established canon. But don't worry to take artistic freedom, after all you have to write a good base story for an already existing one!

The Shroud on 31/1/2013 at 11:29

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Well, isn't that basically what he was doing when he was just a kid, before he even joined the Keepers and received all that stealth training (aside from shop burglaries and jail-time)? Remember Garrett saying, "I was a kid, no parents, no home... Running messages and picking pockets to keep my ribs from meeting my spine." But then of course, we know the Keepers took him in and, as Garrett puts it, "It was the beginning of a very long education..." So we know he ended up with a lot more sharpened skills by the end of his training, and when he left the Keepers, he was obviously much better prepared for a thieving career: "The Keepers were training me to be one of them...but I found...other uses for those skills..." So upon leaving the Keepers, young Garrett would have been far from an "unskillful and desperate thief, picking unwary pedestrians' pockets", though I do of course agree that he would have had to work his way up for a good while before becoming the master thief he is at the beginning of TDP.

To that end, some shop burglaries by night would be the perfect way to begin the game - first with a training mission (equivalent to Running Interference in TMA) wherein young Garrett has to break in to a locksmith's shop to steal some lock-picking tools (maybe he could jimmy open the window-latch with a dagger or something), which would teach the player the controls and the basics of sneaking in a more or less safe environment (the city streets), wherein the player doesn't have to worry about being seen by guards or pedestrians, since young Garrett would just be a common pedestrian himself as far as anyone would be concerned (just like in the beginning of Lord Bafford's Manor, when the player can pass right by people on the streets, and the patrolling guard will just say, "How's it goin"). The only challenge involved at this stage would be avoiding making a racket while snooping around in the shop (say, by breaking the window with a blackjack instead of jimmying open the latch or clumsily knocking things over inside while searching for lock-picking tools, or robbing the locksmith's strongbox, or stealing things from his bedroom, etc), which could wake up the locksmith upstairs, who in turn could shout for help or run to fetch a nearby Hammerite guard on patrol. At the same time, this relatively short and easy mission would serve to establish the City and give the player a feel for the Thief setting. The player could optionally choose to steal from other shops in the marketplace and nearby homes in the surrounding neighborhood after taking the lock-picks, in order to acquire more cash before returning to the inn (or wherever young Garrett's temporary residence is) to complete the mission.

The next mission, which would be the first proper Thief level (equivalent to Lord Bafford's Manor or Shipping...and Receiving in difficulty), could be like a big, long, Life of the Party-style mission, wherein the player has to use the so-called thieves' highway to rob from several wealthy upper-storey homes and businesses, including at least one major target where some substantial loot can be acquired (possibly some jewelery and/or gems). No actual storyline has begun to develop here yet, this stage is just about acquiring cash to live on (although the player might find some notes or diaries or something alluding to events that are going on). Young Garrett intends to obtain enough money to afford renting his own tenement in South Quarter, as well as to purchase some better equipment to help him become a more effective burglar. Nothing too complicated, just a good, basic rooftop-burglary mission to steal as much quick cash as possible. One idea for this stage of the game is that young Garrett probably wouldn't be able to fence off as many different types of stolen loot as he can after he's established connections with fences like Cutty, so the player would have to find things like gold and silver coins, gems, and jewelery rather than fenceable goods like vases, goblets, plates, candlesticks, fine wine, etc. This would mean the player would have to rob from several different houses in order to acquire enough valuables to complete their loot objective.


Well, not to start off, no. In the very beginning, young Garrett should probably only have a narrow dagger (which can be used to jimmy open simple latches and open very basic locks by inserting the tip of the blade into the keyhole and turning the lock to open it). That would only work on opening some windows and cabinets though, not locked doors or chests. So young Garrett would want to steal some lock-picks from a locksmith's shop right away (during the first mission), so that he'd have a means of burglarizing secure houses. In the locksmith's shop, he might also find a magnifying glass (a locksmith would surely have that), and perhaps he could steal a compass from a nearby craftsman's shop. Even if the player doesn't steal those items during the first mission, they should still be able to purchase them at the beginning of the next mission, assuming they looted enough gold to be able to afford them.

In the next mission, burglarizing upper-storey homes and businesses via the rooftops (like in Life of the Party), the player should be able to purchase a blackjack and a rope with a grappling hook (although the mission should still be playable without the grappling hook - but with it, the player would be able to access areas they otherwise couldn't reach via climbing). One idea I had is that among the various businesses the player can break into during this mission, they could find a window-manufacturer's shop (perhaps Garrett could buy a tip from a fellow cat-burglar that shows the location of the shop on a roughly sketched map, along with a note that some useful burglary tools might be found there), and inside, they could steal a glass cutter, which could be used to get into windows and skylights of places without making a lot of noise. If the player doesn't steal the glass cutter during this mission, then it should not be available for purchase until about the sixth mission or so.

As the game progresses, young Garrett should eventually break into his first guarded mansion and steal his first "fat nobleman's priceless trinket", eventually be able to afford expensive gear, etc. Say by about the third mission (equivalent to when Break From Cragscleft Prison takes place in TDP's progression, or when Framed takes place in TMA's progression), the player should tackle their first mansion and have access to some inexpensive gear (a bow and arrows, maybe a small mirror, possibly a hand-lamp with matches, etc. - nothing fancy, just basic stuff that can help with thieving), and while snooping around in the mansion, they should be able to find another useful but non-powerful item somewhere (maybe something as simple as a copper torch-snuffer for manually putting out torches). If they don't steal the torch-snuffer during this mission, they should still be able to purchase one at the beginning of the next mission.

The fourth mission (by now, we're up to the equivalent of Down In The Bonehoard in TDP, or Ambush! in TMA), which could be a more challenging manor or castle-keep, should also introduce a useful but simple item available for purchase (possibly some very basic homemade blinding powder, which would consist of common ingredients like ground up pepper and other spices that are irritating to the eyes, flour, dust soaked in onion juice, powdered stone, etc.), and during the mission, the player should be able to find another helpful but low-powered item (such as a box of caltrops stored in the castle's armory or something). Note that so far, all of this stuff is still very basic and low-tech, not specialized thieving equipment at all.

By the fifth mission (equivalent to Assassins! in TDP or Eavesdropping in TMA), young Garrett, as well as the player, should be experienced enough to tackle a more ambitious job - maybe a well-guarded museum or bank - and should likewise have acquired enough wealth to be able to afford some real thieving equipment (some torch-dousing arrows, noisemaker arrows, caltrops, etc). The player should also be able to find another semi-powerful item somewhere during the mission (maybe some fire crystals with which they can construct some fire arrows or something on that level). If they don't find the fire crystals, they should still be able to purchase some specially crafted fire arrows at the beginning of the next mission.

The sixth mission (now we're at the point of The Sword in TDP or First City Bank and Trust in TMA) should probably be about the point where young Garrett performs his first major heist that gains him his notoriety, at least in so far as a faceless, nameless thief in a black hooded cloak who is now on the Hammerites' most wanted list (maybe this is when he steals the so-called "Gems of Sarnoth" from some powerful lord's tower or a Hammerite stronghold). At this point, the player should be able to purchase some of the best stuff they'll ever obtain in the game (a decent glass cutter, fire arrows, etc). Also, in keeping with Thief's methodology of introducing new and better equipment in each successive mission which then becomes available for purchase in later missions, the player should be able to find another semi-powerful item somewhere during the mission (maybe some smoke bombs in a Hammerite armory or inventor's workshop - these wouldn't be as effective at blinding opponents as flash bombs, but they'd provide a temporary smoke-screen which would give the player a chance to hide from those pursuing them). If they don't find the smoke bombs during this mission, they should still have another chance to acquire them somewhere in the next mission, and have the opportunity to purchase them later on in the game (say, by around the eighth mission or so).

By about the eighth mission (this would be equivalent to The Lost City in TDP or Tracing the Courier in TMA), the player should be able to afford their first grappler arrows (as well as smoke bombs and the like), and by the ninth mission (Undercover in TDP or Trail of Blood in TMA), they should have the opportunity to purchase the top-grade stuff like flash bombs and such. That is about the point where new items should peak in the game, and the rest of the missions following that should just provide what has already been established earlier on. From that point forward, the game should focus on introducing new challenges which the player can overcome with their existing arsenal, rather than adding more and more items that unbalance the game with too much gadgetry and not enough applications for all of them.


I completely agree.


Absolutely. On the streets, he'd just be some commoner in a hooded cloak (just like in the beginning of Lord Bafford's Manor), able to move freely in plain sight wherever he wants until he actually breaks in to someplace. It would be a nice change of pace from worrying about the City Watch recognizing you wherever you go.


Well, that's not quite true actually. You are right that the name "Garrett" is notorious among the underworld in TDP (the Thieves Guild knows of him and the so-called City Wardens have dealt with him, Ramirez and his thugs have obviously heard of him, etc.), but the Hammerites only recognize him on sight during Strange Bedfellows because they remember him from when he entered their temple disguised as a Hammerite Novice in Undercover - and having stolen the Air and Earth talismans and setting off the temple's alarm in the process, Garrett proved himself to be a master thief (as Garrett himself put it, "...because as the new arrival, I'll be the first person they suspect if anything goes wrong..."). Well, something went wrong alright. That's why the Hammerites address him in Strange Bedfellows with, "Ah...'tis thee...the master thief..." But prior to Undercover, the Hammerites obviously didn't know who Garrett was (if they had, that definitely would have ruined his disguise and his entire plan to enter as a would-be Hammerite Novice). As far as the City Watch goes, there were no Watch officers in TDP (at least, not during the playable missions). The Hammers policed the streets back then. Then as the Order of the Hammer declined and the Metal Age dawned, the Sherriff and the City Watch became the major police power in the City.


Well, remember what consequences getting caught has...(we got a glimpse of that in Cragscleft Prison). Garrett still has both his hands and all his fingers attached, and he was bold enough to walk right into the Hammer temple disguised as a Hammerite Novice, so I think it's pretty clear that he's never been caught before. The wanted poster that we see during the TDP intro, which reads, "Thief wanted for the theft of the Gems of Sarnoth" depicts the culprit as a black-cloaked figure with a shadowed, unseen face and no visible features, so that tells me that Garrett was witnessed (at least glimpsed by someone) in the past, but not identified. That means he must have escaped before anyone could see his face. A nondescript figure in a black, hooded cloak was all they could remember of his appearance, so that's what was drawn on the wanted poster. Not much to go on, as anyone could don a cloak and fit that nebulous description. So while technically Garrett is a wanted man, those wanting him don't exactly know who they want...


I agree with all of the above except his first encounter with the undead. I get a very strong impression from Break From Cragscleft Prison that that is the first time Garrett has ever encountered the undead firsthand. After that mission, he starts taking necessary precautions whenever he's about to go somewhere that's haunted (such as in Down In The Bonehoard, where he says, "Felix, always helpful, also said that the catacombs are supposed to be haunted. Think I'll go make some inquiries about where a heretic like me can get some holy water. Always go prepared..."). But before that, he doesn't seem to take much stock in the rumors that, "The Hammers don't venture into these lower mine levels because they're reputed to be haunted." If he had dealt with the undead before, I think he would have brought holy water with him into the mines like he does when he ventures into the Bonehoard and the walled-off section of the Olde Quarter. Evidently his experiences in the haunted mines opened his eyes to the reality of things like zombies, and dispelled the skepticism he had held previously.


Here are some ideas about potential precursors to the specialized items Garrett uses in TDP:

Compass: no precusor; Garrett should get this early on
Lockpicks: should acquire much lower-grade picks very early, and a basic glass cutter mid-game
Blackjack: no precursor; Garrett should get this early on
Sword: should have a dagger instead (effective as a tool to jimmy open latches and disarm traps)
Broadhead arrows: no precursor; should be available fairly early
Water arrows: should acquire a common torch-snuffer fairly early, then get *"dousing arrows" mid-game
Moss arrows: no precursor; just have reasonable footsteps and tread carefully
Noisemaker arrows: no precursor; should not get these until mid-game
Rope arrows: should acquire a rope and grappling hook early on, then get *"grappler arrows" late-game
Fire arrows: no precursor; should not get these until late-game
Gas arrows: no precursor; unnecessary and overpowered, use blackjack instead
Flash bombs: should acquire blinding powder mid-game, then smoke bombs, then flash bombs late-game
Explosive mines: should acquire caltrops mid-game (temporarily stall or halt pursuers)
Gas mines: no precursor; unnecessary to gameplay, use blackjack instead
Healing potions: no precursor; unnecessary to gameplay, combat should be avoided
Speed potions: no precursor; unnecessary to gameplay, running is fast enough
Breath potions: no precursor; unnecessary to gameplay, can hold breath long enough
Holy water: no precursor; N/A, Garrett should not encounter undead until TDP

New items:

Magnifying glass: for inspecting doors/chests/areas for hard-to-spot traps
Small mirror: for seeing around corners discreetly; leaning should be more risky
Hand-lamp with matches: for seeing in dark areas without giving off much light
*Dousing arrows: essentially water arrows that require precise aiming at torch-kindling, don't extinguish large fires, and don't wash away blood-stains
*Grappler arrows: basically rope arrows that trail a rope from them instead of deploying one on impact (player can only carry one rope)


I agree.


I agree that Garrett should be capable of picking up a downed guard's sword if the player wants to. I just don't think Garrett should bring his own sword on thieving missions. I mean, on top of everything else that's been said about the sword, it's inconvenient for a thief who's trying to skulk about and hide in tight spaces to have to worry about a long scabbard knocking against things and causing noise, especially while doing lots of athletics and climbing, crawling through windows, etc. It's just a really bad idea for so many reasons. The only reason the sword was even in the game in the first place was because it was a leftover from when the game was still Dark Camelot and sword-fighting was going to be a main part of the gameplay. They didn't want all their work on sword-fighting to go to waste, so they kept it in the game, but it's clearly a foolhardy decision for the player to try to rely on the sword to deal with their opponents, especially on Expert level. It really goes against what Thief is all about, and the developers knew that, but they kept it in because they didn't think the stealth theme would attract enough players. But we're past that now. Today, first-person-sneaking is an established and respected gameplay genre. It's time to let the sword, and our uneasiness with pure stealth-gameplay, go.

The Shroud on 31/1/2013 at 12:25

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Surely you're not suggesting that they don't have mirrors? Anyway, TMA had them (though of course, they didn't work, due to engine limitations).