SneakyJack on 2/5/2010 at 17:08
Quote Posted by Outlooker
More and more fanmissions were made - most of them as good as the original game content and quite often considerably better.
I'd say the maybe top 30 fanmissions made were quite better than the original thief games. Mission X, CoSaS, Christines stuff and many other fan projects were better in every single aspect.
I definitely agree with you that there have been at least 50 fan missions that were better than any single campaign mission that originally shipped with the games - but there are many factors leading to that, some of which have been mentioned. Without the original games and their framework we wouldn't have gotten those brilliant fan missions. Fan mission authors also have unlimited time (as much as their patience will allow) and resources (they aren't paying a huge team nor are they having to create resources from scratch in most instances) so someone like Christine can spend two or three years on a campaign and release an astounding product full of details and polish - where the original team probably had 2 years at most to create a fully voice acted and cinematic 12-15 mission campaign. Alot of the blockbuster fan missions have been created over the span of a few years for one or two missions.
I can only imagine what greatness the LGS team could have come up with were they given unlimited resources and time. Then again, without deadlines we end up with Debacles like Duke Nukem Forever.
Quote Posted by Outlooker
Who cares what big game companies do to thief 4 ?
The same people that refuse to create missions for Thief 3. For a 'true' thief experience you need to be able to use the thief mythology and assets - and without a solid game and engine to build on it will drive that community influence that you speak of right out of wanting to create for it. We want a good game because we also hope for great fan missions, right?
Quote Posted by Outlooker
Now, with Darkmod, there is even a very good game engine (DOOM 3) skilled and dedicated thief fans have adapted - highly successful.
I'm really loving TDM and I think its brilliant - but lets be realistic - there are still alot of Thief holdout players who would rather play/build for the real thing and have either written TDM off immediately or won't give it a chance. We still want those people to create thief missions and we want the community to remain strong, regardless of their stance on TDM. A great Thief 4 could also attract new blood to the community and to fan mission creation, and that is never a bad thing.
Alot of it boils down to "if X hadn't been created then Y wouldn't exist", really.
Albert on 2/5/2010 at 18:05
Quote Posted by Valiento
Like telltale games they could do it by seasons, 4-5 episodes per season. Thus they could add to the richness of the universe, without dilluting Garret.
Y' know, I never liked Telltales business model, but if the right company were to do it, I would gladly pay a few bucks to play an awesome episodic adventure of the great Garrett.
But then, they'd be going up against the immense talent of the community, which has proven itself to make some pretty good missions.
And really, when it all boils down to it, the first 2 thief games really made the community what it is. Good gameplay, good graphics (for the time), a neat story line, music that really sets the mood... All those elements made the original games appealing. It's what brought the community together, to prove ourselves capable of making good FMs.
And to have some company come along and sell us episodes of a watered down version of a classic game, is quite frankly, a kick in the nuts.
Yeah, on second thought, the prospect seems good. But with all the crappy games Telltale has made, I can't imagine an FP-sneaker doing any better in the episodic format.
Then again, I just don't care for Telltale. Their games are bland. Sorry, they just are. And it's all because of their business model. If another company tasked of making an episodic thief series where to follow suit, it would all be a worthless mess.
Albert on 2/5/2010 at 18:08
And might I add, that until a good FM gets released for TDM, and the community works to make it feel more like the Thief games we all love and care for, that I doubt the TDM is the spiritual child of the classic LGS games. More like a red-headed stepson, really.
Namdrol on 2/5/2010 at 20:02
How many TDM missions have you played Albert? 'Cos the above post is bullshit.
SneakyJack on 3/5/2010 at 04:17
I agree. There was a three mission campaign just released by Goldchocobo that is really well done. Before that there was Heart Of Lone Salvation which was also really good.
Ignorance is no excuse - TDM is pretty great and getting better with each new mission.
Beleg Cúthalion on 3/5/2010 at 11:48
Quote Posted by SneakyJack
[People who care about the company which makes Thief IV] The same people that refuse to create missions for Thief 3. [...] and without a solid game and engine to build on it will drive that community influence that you speak of right out of wanting to create for it.
That's a bit ignorant of multiple factors I fear, although you might be right about when limited to "the same people". I consider both tool kits approximately equal in their capabilities - in broad terms. The thing is that T3Ed was faced by the community in trying to get things working that were apparently the core elements of Thief gameplay - namely water and rope arrows - which was about to fail because of the enormous amount of work necessary to provide at least cleverly-hidden workarounds.
Meanwhile DM had a great advertising campaign - not least based on water and rope arrows - and was presented as basically without limits (although I doubt that the average FM maker has the skill to change the heart of the DM code, although the many "the fans may add this if they like" implied a certain simplicity), while at the same time you couldn't blame anyone for faults because it was made by the fans in their free time. Thus the receptivity on the fans' side was much better, even overcoming the flaws that DM surely still has (left aside the general impression/taste of what Thief is etc., where DM's artificial look still hasn't convinced me).
There's no doubt that fan projects have a special quality to offer, but I wouldn't consider a certain toolkit's - objectively measurable - capabilities (or "Thief mythology" content and assets) as most important factors of the fans' reception of it. Much more the attitude towards it (and to where it comes from) or the goals the fans want to achieve with it - left aside problems of free time and manpower etc. etc.. I don't think DM will suffer popularity because it is not the original Thief thing, that's peanuts really. On the other hand - I admit I haven't checked in detail - I doubt that DM, for instance, has nearly the 30,000 sound files which TDS had and which made it so lively. But
if the fans go over it, the broad statement of "(more) solid/versatile/generally better engine/toolkit lead to more popularity" is IMHO at stake.
Albert on 3/5/2010 at 12:13
Quote Posted by Namdrol
How many TDM missions have you played Albert? 'Cos the above post is bullshit.
OK, OK... To be honest, I got a bit sickened by the FMs I had tried out. I still don't think TDM is perfect yet, but taking back a bit of what I was thinking earlier, I tried out the latest TDM FM (Er, THOS, which represents something), and was surprised to find that the first mission was very good. Not exactly the best (The sensitivity of the AI still aggravates me), but a whole lot better than the earlier FMs.
Nephthys on 10/5/2010 at 23:34
Quote Posted by Valiento
Seriously though, what I would like to see is something like a Thief Chronicles. Something of an episodic series, off the internet. 4-5 missions per episode, for a reasonable price.
Remember when Valve decided to do episodic gaming?
...
I don't want Thief to have 'episodes.'
Valiento on 11/5/2010 at 07:56
Quote Posted by Nephthys
Remember when Valve decided to do episodic gaming?
...
I don't want Thief to have 'episodes.'
Ya, the problem with Valve's "episodic" gaming was they actually went about making pretty much full sized games (at least full-sized by most companies standards). Half-life 2 episode I and II are full length games really, like something like 8-11 "levels" per episode, about half the size of the original Half-life II. Valve went outside of their original intent to release much shorter episodes, that's the reason why it has taken them so long to release each game. However, I have to say the "episodes" so far have been excellent.
mothra on 12/5/2010 at 10:29
ep2 is what hl2 should have been and the best shooter Valve released since HL1. sp:conviction is in my opininon no stealth game, it is a typical shooter where you use stealth to position yourself better. it's like a little tactical prelude to the shooting. most of its missions are designed with the player killing EVERYBODY in mind. As soon as I decided to kill everything that moves, SP:C was more fun. It was just a totally different experience from ... ChaosTheory, for example.
I fear much more that the devs for T4 will take notes from AssassinsCreed with its canned, uninterruptable animations and easy AI.
