kamyk on 25/11/2009 at 09:41
@Shroud
I realize that in the last thread relating to this project, I was one of the more vocal critics, mainly due to a few ideas you had that I couldn't accept. I'd been avoiding this thread for that reason. I didn't want to get into another debate over the finer points.
However, after finally reading over this thread, I'd just like to say, that what I've seen so far gets my :thumb:
I think you are doing a fine job of things, and I have no quarrel with what I've seen so far. :)
If I may make a small suggestion?
Quote Posted by The Shroud
CUTTY
Been sparse ever since the Hammers
started snooping about. I've been strapped
for weeks.
GARRETT
More inspections huh?
CUTTY
They've been cracking down all over
Stonemarket. Clients are getting
squeamish.
GARRETT
Heh. If only the Hammers knew what
goes on right under their noses.
CUTTY
Lucky for me they don't, or I'd be rotting in Cragscleft prison.
(smirking)
Do you have it?
Or some such. I don't pretend to be a Cutty expert, so I don't know how he'd quite put it, but it would give a nod to the OM, and also prepare any moviegoers who take up the games as a result of seeing the film.
Again, I do like what I see so far. :thumb:
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@Thread in general.
I think several of the posts in this thread, by various persons, sell both the movie crowd and the game fans short.
On the one hand moviegoers are capable of suspension of disbelief without detailed scientific backup. I could list dozens of examples from many successful movies. For example: no one explained how the crystal in Dragonslayer worked to allow Galen to do magic, or why there were walking tree people in LOTR, or how the wardrobe worked in Chronicles of Narnia. Much less Harry Potter, I could list hundreds from that. People just accepted it all, or went and got the various books. And if Thief becomes a movie, there will be new players. Perhaps not hundreds or thousands, but new people will play.
On the other hand, gamers can be just as critical as moviegoers. Take a look around the forums and see how many threads there are debating the topics of how things work, why they work, where they came from and such, for simple evidence of that. Writing gamers off as willing to just accept implausible things because "it's only a game" doesn't do gamers, or games, justice - and kind of implies that gamers aren't critical thinkers.
The Shroud on 26/11/2009 at 19:07
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Shroud, you've done some good work on this screenplay (from what I've seen) and I commend your fanaticism to the Thief games with what you've done here.
Thank you. :)
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
While I'm extremely sceptical this project could ever get off the ground
As are we all. ;)
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
it's still a good technical exercise to get yourself writing and I'd push you to try your own material once you finish with this.
Thank you. To be honest, though, I have no ambitions of getting my own stuff published or produced. I just want to see Thief make it to the big screen. :)
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
The only real criticism I would offer is the inclusion of references to game cutscenes and musical cues, these are really not relevant at all and make it seem more like a fanfic script than an actual attempt to adapt the work meaningfully for an audience.
I referenced the cutscenes in several spots because in many cases, the writing itself cannot adequately describe the visuals and sounds which need to be used. Writing a scene with the level of detail required to effectively conjure anything from the original cutscenes would require so much text as to waste whole blocks of pages on descriptions - space which is better used for action and dialogue. I absolutely do want to use the original cutscenes' content, so this is really the only solution I can see for ensuring that that is done without wasting a lot of space in the script. A picture paints a thousand words, as they say.
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
That said, I'm not sure if you ever intend on pitching your work to anyone outside the TTLG/Eidos world.
I guess it's Square Enix now. :erg: We'll see how that goes... Not holding my breath, but if they don't go for it I'll just have to try to obtain the rights and pitch it somewhere else.
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Another suggestion would be to not get lost in Thief lore and speak either, I mean, I'm all for taffers and burricks in a Thief movie, but it has to make sense and not just be a whole bunch of shoe-horned images and words unless it truly lends colour and depth to the world the characters are living in.
I agree. But are you referring to anything in particular?
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
On a related note, I've tinkered with a few scripts myself (nothing finished yet) and one of them is a direct homage to the Thief games but I've removed all traces of the universe from it and instead rooted it in the real world with only a faintly similar mythology. Setting it in Italy, a country rich in history and grand architecture and fallen former culture, made it an easy transition for "The City". I hope one day to finish it.
Good luck! I'd definitely like to see something like that.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Why have I only read this now?? Great work, Shroud! Your attention to detail is fantastic. From what you've posted here, it looks like you've put in just enough references that fans will recognise, while keeping in mind that you're writing a movie, not an in-joke (. :thumb:
Thank you, and yes, that is my goal.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
One humble suggestion: I was actually playing through Bafford's just the other day, and the throne-room guard said that same line. My first reaction was 'huh, well that makes no sense at all', since he was standing right outside the throne-room, in the heart of the mansion. It would have been plausible coming out of the mouths of one of the cellar guards, but not one of the lucky few who are actually upstairs where the sir would live. Just a thought.
I assume you're referring to his line about being "down here in the cold and the dark and the damp." Well, he actually is a bit 'down' there, due to the stairs leading down from the second floor to the audience chamber. Not way down in the cellar, no, but still not quite up there with the guards patrolling the second floor, which I gather is where he'd prefer to be. And it's definitely cold and dark (the room is lit with torches, which don't really give off much light). As for it being damp, that's pretty common in medieval structures like that, due to condensation on the stone walls from the air outside - and the audience chamber really
is surrounded by the cold night at the manor's north end (technically the east end in the actual game), rather than insulated in the heart of the building. So I think his lines make sense. ;)
However, this sort of critical analysis in general is exactly the way we should all approach this adaptation, because as fans, we've all grown too close to Thief and are obviously susceptible to bias and selective blindness. So I very much appreciate and encourage this kind of healthy criticism. No one can be completely objective about their own work, and I'm certainly no exception.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Curious: how do you envision the City? A more modern-fantasy sort of idea like Bree from LOTR or the grey-blue City in TDS? Or the more earth-toned, colourful city from TDP?
I envision the City exactly as Dan Thron portrayed it in the cutscenes (not the in-game renderings): crowded, gray stone buildings, lots of pitched rooftops, towers and spires, with the only noticeable color originating from the numerous yellow/orange glowing windows that dot the cityscape. More similar to TDS in that regard. It's a cold, dark, unwelcoming place where citizens lock themselves in their homes and avoid the streets at night.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I'm going to guess not many people would necessarily want a well-known actor to play Garrett.
Definitely not.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I'm also anxious to see some of Constantine's :). That level is probably my favourite, just for the sense of 'oh damn... what the... oh
damn... oh...' you get as you go further up and things get weirder and weirder.
Looking forward to everyone's thoughts on it once I get around to transferring it over here. ;)
Quote Posted by Dominus
"glad to see Thief is still rockin' it. And nice work with the script -- a Thief film would be great."- Daniel Thron
:thumb: Can't ask for better than that. Thanks Dan (and Dominus)!
Quote Posted by kamyk
after finally reading over this thread, I'd just like to say, that what I've seen so far gets my :thumb:
I think you are doing a fine job of things, and I have no quarrel with what I've seen so far. :)
Glad to hear that! :)
Quote Posted by kamyk
If I may make a small suggestion? ... Or some such. I don't pretend to be a Cutty expert, so I don't know how he'd quite put it, but it would give a nod to the OM, and also prepare any moviegoers who take up the games as a result of seeing the film.
That's an idea. I'm curious what others think about this suggestion?
Quote Posted by kamyk
On the one hand moviegoers are capable of suspension of disbelief without detailed scientific backup.
Agreed - and don't worry, I haven't included any scientific explanations in the script. What you've seen with the water-arrow is as close as it ever gets to bringing insight into Garrett's devices (there's another shot later on in the Olde Quarter sequence which shows him igniting a fire arrow with a firm press against the nock, but it doesn't bother with the specifics of how it works internally).
Quote Posted by kamyk
On the other hand, gamers can be just as critical as moviegoers. Take a look around the forums and see how many threads there are debating the topics of how things work, why they work, where they came from and such, for simple evidence of that. Writing gamers off as willing to just accept implausible things because "it's only a game" doesn't do gamers, or games, justice - and kind of implies that gamers aren't critical thinkers.
I would say you're right on one hand - but on the other, I have seen gamers stubbornly defend things like water crystals popping up in sinks and bathtubs by making statements like "It's a
game for crying out loud! It doesn't have to be realistic!", or worse yet, coming up with long and involved arguments to support things which any reasonable person could admit exist solely for gameplay reasons. I don't think gamers are incapable of critical thinking by any means, but rather that we (like the majority of people) are all often very
selective about which things we apply our critical thinking to, and which we let slide due to our biases and protectiveness over what has become dear to our hearts.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I think the difference here is that Lsince OTR, Narnia and HP were such massively well-known franchises before they were made into movies, you don't need to explain as much to them. When someone goes to see LOTR, it's most likely that they remember the ents from the book, and are glad they're in there. The portion of the audience that has played Thief will be far smaller. And also, if I may say so, the canon for Thief is, as Shroud mentioned, far less developed than something like that of LOTR. There's no really good reason for water crystals to just appear other than for gameplay reasons, whereas the ents probably have a back-story that spans thousands of years.
Agreed - although I would say that in the case of LOTR, many people who had never read the books accepted the trilogy as readily as hardcore Tolkien fans. I think what is most crucial is that whatever is shown appears
plausible given the setting - even if it is not wholly understood in depth. Things like zombies, burricks, fire elementals, and magic will appear plausible because people will be aware that this is a fantasy, and those things are acceptable in a fantasy. Technical problems though (like a little splash of water completely dousing a burning torch, or an arrow-shaft mysteriously blinking out of existence after impact) are not going to fly.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
But I do agree with your general point - we shouldn't be so harsh in categorising the audiences of films and games. However, I think there's a grain of truth in these categorisations.
Agreed.
