killerecho on 30/10/2006 at 19:11
One thing has always bothered me is the apparent inconsistency within the Thief timeline that certain details in TDS seem to indicate. As far as I can tell (and please correct me if I'm wrong on this), it has never been established how long after the events of TMA does TDS take place. But it can't have been that long - Garrett doesn't look that much older if that and none of the familiar elements from the game have changed much either.
Now how long before TDS did the events of Shalebridge take place? That Drept was there when he was little suggests at least three decades. Now, Shalebridge lies in the Old Quarter, and when Garrett passed through it en route to the haunted cathedral, the whole place was walled up and off limits. The understanding was that ALL of old quarter was this way after the cataclysm thing.
An explanation could exist if Shalebridge isn't exactly located in Old Quarter, but only adjacent to its perimeter or otherwise closeby. It might also be that the proverbial "Old Quarter" referred to in TDP was only the quarantined section of the bigger, active Old Quarter represented in TDS.
Furthermore, there's also a note in the Cradle that referred to the warped viktrola found in one of the cells. It stated something to the effect of it being old and of Mechanist design. Again correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Mechanists arose during TMA. While it is possible that they've been around long before then, wouldn't the Hammers have quashed them by the time they gained enough prominence such that even the asylum staff know of them and their style?
The least likely explanation, although still possible, is that the events of TDP and TMA do precede those of TDS byover 30, 40 years, and that Garrett just looks really good for his age (botox?). And come to think of it, Artemis did lose all his hair.
I'd love to hear your theories.
T-Smith on 30/10/2006 at 19:45
The exact time the Cradle fire occurred is currently under debate. I'm fairly certain in happened 20 years ago prior to DS, but I don't have the game installed so I can't verify.
I'm not sure how much of the Old Quarter was sealed off following the disaster. It happened 50 years prior to The Dark Project, and I can't recall there ever being a specific mention. However, mentions of a "walled off section" of the Old Quarter have been made, which suggests small parts of it remained outside of the walls and weren't affected. I seriously doubt that in between the events of The Dark Project and Deadly Shadows (not much time seems to have passed, a handful of years at most) the entire Old Quarter was purged of the undead problem, the walls brought down, and the place rebuilt.
As for the viktrola, that's a continuity error that's already been discussed. That mention was simply put in there by mistake :P. The Cradle predates the Mechanists, so they never had any influence on it or involvement with it.
Beleg Cúthalion on 30/10/2006 at 22:24
Quote Posted by T-Smith
The exact time the Cradle fire occurred is currently under debate. I'm fairly certain in happened 20 years ago prior to DS, but I don't have the game installed so I can't verify.
20 years would mean that Garrett was alive (and maybe even having an eye on the world around him) when the fire started. There's nothing in the briefing disagreeing to that and still it seems that it was even before his time (or in his maybe first five years)...but that's just a feeling of me. I think he would have mentioned something if this fire was "part" of his own life, after all he was an orphan, too. So I guess we could place the cradle incident ten years after the cathedral and Drept would be around 50 in TDS.
Quote Posted by some master thief
The Shalebridge Cradle. It used to be an insane asylum, and before that it was an orphanage. One night a fire started, no one knows how, and after that they left the place abandoned. If there's a way to cram more misery into one building's history, I can't think of it. I'm here to learn about the old woman who attacked me in the Keeper Compound. Drept said he saw the hag here at the orphanage long ago, when his childhood friend was murdered. He's never dared to come back, but I don't think I have much choice. It's a thin lead, but it's all I have left. I've never robbed an orphanage before, and I can't say I'm looking forward to this visit. There's no telling what I'll find inside. I'm used to the dark, but this feels like a house with bad dreams.
T-Smith on 31/10/2006 at 00:21
See, that's the thing, we can't just base the dates on Garrett not ever mentioning it. I mean, the Old Gray Lady is apparently a well known children's rhyme and story, people on the streets in TDS sing and hum it, and the Shalebridge Cradle itself a well known haunted area, yet neither of them are mentioned at all in the first two games in any way.
The Woodsie Lord on 1/11/2006 at 20:44
Just because it wasn't mentioned in the game, is logical, because it was irrelevant to the storyline. They also say some castles are cursed, but you don't have to link one haunted place to another if you visit it.
theBlackman on 1/11/2006 at 22:27
History is just that. Childrens nursery rhymes can, and do deal with items hundreds of years old, and 10 to 30 years old.
The situation with the Old Quarter and Shalebridge could have been anywhere from 5 to 50 years prior to Garrett's birth. The Shalebridge situation had no bearing on the plotline, or activities of Garrett in the first games.
So, other than the beasties and isolation of the OQ, were superflous to the information "we" needed to play as Garrett.
The fact that he was an orphan is also a non-sequitar. He says he lived on the streets as a messenger and petty thief. Unless and until he came to the active attention of the city watch or other authority, he would have no contact with any orphanage. As an unknown "sparrow" he was a free agent.
The Shalebridge tragedy, and the nursery rhyme, and any children's play game or dance associated with it would be historical in origin, but not be relevant. Just as the reason that the Old Shoalsgate is no longer used, was not relevant in TDP.
june gloom on 2/11/2006 at 05:07
if we assume that the cradle stands on or near the border of the closed section, then it can be seen as part of the collective horror that is the barricades. they might even share a wall on the cradle grounds- remember, we never see the back area of the place, only the front yard, and the breezeway in the middle. to me it seems that the cradle, thanks to its close proximity to the barricades and therefore the eye, as well as the staff's policies, the cradle was a disaster waiting to happen- and when it did, it was only made worse because of its proximity to the eye.
considering the policies of the cradle's administrative staff i wouldn't be suprised that they ran it so close to a dangerous area. now, we know the cataclysm was 50 years prior to thief 1, and we can assume the cradle was operating before that, though it was probably only an orphanage. it's unknown exactly when it began to double as an asylum, but given the hospital's patient management practices as well as a few of lauryl's diary pages and running commentary, it would've been during lauryl and drept's stay.
i believe the cradle as we know it is the result of a number of things. first: the eye. the eye was not directly responsible for the disaster, but it likely exerted some influence on the results. second: the collective misery of the place- the state of the orphans (orphanages are depressing places, man!), then forcing them to co-exist with the mentally ill, some of them dangerous, followed by the fallout of the staff blaming one of the whitehall patients for lauryl's murder, where the other whitehall patients banded together (with king no one running the show) and managed to get loose and raise hell, and then with our miss wrenfield lighting up the staff tower which caused the rest of the place to catch fire. a place that suffers that kind of insanity (for lack of a better word) is bound to become haunted. i don't believe in ghosts, but i do believe in negative energy- and considering that thief is fiction, the cradle would have negative energy in spades- which would be multiplied by the eye, probably looking for something to do in its confinement. if the cradle as we know it had just been the result of the eye having fun, we would've seen a bunch of zombies wandering around and that would be it. but the place had so much negative energy that it gave the cradle itself a sort of unlife- in fact, i would go so far to say that in lieu of resurrecting the dead patients and their victims, the eye gave unlife to the cradle ITSELF- which then created the puppets.
ramble ramble.
hurr. tangent. i guess what i was going to say before i got sidetracked was that the cradle itself is rarely mentioned, in part because of the irrational fear of the place the locals have (especially in old quarter) and the fact that in the public's mind, it's now irrevocably connected to the barricades and thus the cataclysm, though it's fair to say that the cradle's "death" happened at least ten years later, and thus is referred to collectively when speaking of the barricades, which nobody seems to want to talk about anyway.
[edit] also, one more thing: i'm fairly certain that the disaster was around 40 years prior to T3. i believe drept states his age (50) and he would have been about 10 years old at the time of the disaster.
242 on 5/11/2006 at 12:01
Quote Posted by killerecho
One thing has always bothered me is the apparent inconsistency within the Thief timeline that certain details in TDS seem to indicate...
First fact - TDS starts just after Thief 2 ends, days or weeks at most.
I don't quite remember where I got this from, maybe manual or dev's post or official site or in-game quote, but I clearly remember it was official info.
Second - only section of Old Quarter was walled up because of the cataclysm. So the Cradle is located in OQ but outside of the wall.
"old" mechanist victrola in the long ago abandoned Cradle is inconsistence IMO, but we can forgive it, can't we? :)
cradle_curdled on 5/11/2006 at 13:53
Quote Posted by 242
First fact - TDS starts just after Thief 2 ends, days or weeks at most.
I don't quite remember where I got this from, maybe manual or dev's post or official site or in-game quote, but I clearly remember it was official info.
Second - only section of Old Quarter was walled up because of the cataclysm. So the Cradle is located in OQ but outside of the wall.
"old" mechanist victrola in the long ago abandoned Cradle is inconsistence IMO, but we can forgive it, can't we? :)
Sure, but there are one or two other possible inconsistencies. The Hammerite Trials against the Mechanists, detailed in the book in Gamall's quarters. Also, the biography of Garrett in the Keeper Library, the tone of which treats the Karras episode as ancient history. The fact that these books exist at all are indications of a longer timespan.
So, that first fact could use some verification, if you can dig it up.
june gloom on 9/11/2006 at 23:24
well, the keepers treat pretty much everything that happened more than a week ago as ancient history, heh.
i imagine there's about 1 1/2 to 2 months between thief 2 and 3. long enough for the hammers to have (swift) trials, but short enough for the apparent claim of a short period of time between the two games. (i don't think it's in the manual, i skimmed through it and saw nothing indicating that.) it would probably also give enough time for the keepers to quit debating over whether to let garrett read their books at all.
