The Black Cat on 17/11/2017 at 03:41
I'm fascinated by the concept of stealth. Of all stealth games I've played, I believe Thief has the most realistic approach to sneaking, in that it takes more things into account than most games with a stealth system. Most stealth I see in games is simple line of sight or hide-in-a-bush stealth, while Thief uses light levels, sound levels based on how fast you move and the material you're moving across, visibility in relation to an enemy's proximity to you, and enemies who don't just forget about you if you disappear long enough and actually communicate with their allies.
The Thief games may be the best "stealth simulator" games we have, but my question to you is, are they? Has anyone attempted to sneak, Thief style, in real life? What are some things that would translate from Thief into real life stealth? What are some aspects of real life sneaking that aren't covered by Thief, or any other stealth game? Is it possible for a "stealth simulator" game that is even more realistic than Thief to exist, or is real life stealth too complex (or too frustrating for players) to ever be replicated accurately in a game?
Grandmauden on 17/11/2017 at 06:39
Well, the first thing that jumps into my mind is silhouettes. Even if I'm in the darkest shadow possible when a guard is looking in my direction, if there's a light source behind me and I'm blocking at least part of that light, the guard could easily realize someone is standing there.
However, I've never seen Thief, or any other stealth games (to my knowledge), take silhouettes into account. But that's a good thing, IMO, because otherwise, it'd be too frustrating and unfair for players. Imagine how difficult the games would become if light sources could give you away even without directly illuminating you! Even the first tutorial in "A Keeper's Training" would probably be impossible if the Keeper instructor acknowledged your silhouette.
Esme on 17/11/2017 at 12:36
As I remember the army has seven S's for stealth
* Shine - don't wear reflective things & watch for reflections
* Shape - if it's got a recognisable outline as a human or human part it probably is so break it up with decoration
* Shadow - if there's a shadow that shouldn't be there or it moves or it's recognisably human it's an issue, be aware of your shadow
* Spacing - avoid making regular patterns where there aren't any or breaking regular patterns where there are some
* Silhouette - don't get between a light source & a viewer
* Speed - fast movement is a dead giveaway
* Sound - don't make any, also be aware that animals may fall silent when they sense a predator and the sudden silence may give you away
I'd also throw in smell, if you're in a clean place & smell like you crawled out of a sewer that's an issue as is being in a smelly place & wearing cologne, aim for a neutral smell if possible & if not try to smell like the location you're in & be aware that whatever you do you won't confuse a dog they'll sniff you out
I'd say Thief covers sound fairly well & I reckon the other major factor approximates to shape if a AI sees any part of you for long enough they recognise it's you, but as long as you are standing in a dark enough shadow, even if it only covers your feet, you won't be seen, don't think Thief even attempts the others
marbleman on 17/11/2017 at 15:29
Thief indeed has advanced stealth mechanics, but it's utterly non-realistic. In addition what Grandmauden said about silhouettes, let's not forget that Garrett can hide in "perfect shadows," making AIs oblivious that he is there even if they are bumping into him! Similarly, bumping into AIs does nothing.
There is an in-game justification for the former. Garrett does not simply become "darker" in shadows. He becomes trasnparent, blending in with the darkness. In the briefing to the Keeper's Training, he says, "folks walked past him [the keeper] like he wasn't there," which means they didn't see him or his silhouette. If you want to get an experience of how enemy AIs see you, the player, play Equilibrium FM.
Nevertheless, there is no justification for the bumps, but some other FMs take that into accound by implementing a bump mechanic (A Job Well Done, Behind Closed Doors).
ohexploitable on 21/11/2017 at 21:13
Unless you and the room alike are made up of 'vantablack' material. Odds are, you'll be pretty easy to spot as the pupils adjusts to the darkness. Anything but the aforementioned vantablack material would be easy to spot in the dark in due time. I guess the name of the game in this case would be to stand by an object that absorbs as much light as possible, while you yourself also garnishing clothes that would emulate the same thing.
Starker on 22/11/2017 at 09:08
I always figured the keepers in Thief used a SEP field for stealth. That way you can stand in plain sight and still be hidden. Or, alternatively, you just fade into the foreground like in Discworld.
PinkDot on 23/11/2017 at 00:24
Problem with implementing silhouette is that it's angle dependent and most of the time you couldn't really tell if your silhouette is visible or not, cause you would have to constantly be looking around you. And you don't even need a source of light behind you - just a bit of ambient light in a room with bright walls.
But potentially, this could be made into a working game mechanics using some HUD element. Just like the light gem is an abstract generalization of your visibility, there should be a way of indicating how visible your silhouette is from different directions (maybe just four directions, for simplicity). It's not a trivial thing, but might be worth thinking about if anyone goes about an idea of designing a next gen stealth game. Using a third person perspective camera would probably make it more feasible.
Another interesting stealth feature could be hiding behind/under some objects. For example inside wardrobes, under the bed, inside a pile of rubbish or fallen leaves, behind the curtains etc... This would probably require a lot of preparation work on a per asset basis, to define those areas of cover and how does that affect player's movements ability etc...
And another one I'd like to see is the player's shadow detection. It could be done by calculating visibility of projection of number of points in the body from the nearby source of light onto level geometry. But then handling when and where these shadows actually trigger suspicious reactions would be another thing...
marbleman on 23/11/2017 at 12:27
Quote Posted by PinkDot
And another one I'd like to see is the player's shadow detection. It could be done by calculating visibility of projection of number of points in the body from the nearby source of light onto level geometry. But then handling when and where these shadows actually trigger suspicious reactions would be another thing...
This has been done at least in Splinter Cell Chaos Theory but maybe in some other stealth games too. You can still irrealistically hide in shadows Thief-style, but enemy AIs do notice your shadow.
Quote Posted by PinkDot
Another interesting stealth feature could be hiding behind/under some objects. For example inside wardrobes, under the bed, inside a pile of rubbish or fallen leaves, behind the curtains etc... This would probably require a lot of preparation work on a per asset basis, to define those areas of cover and how does that affect player's movements ability etc...
This I have also seen in many games, but it's usually very simplistic: here's a wardrobe, you can enter it and be hidden unless of course enemies saw you do it.
PinkDot on 23/11/2017 at 20:09
I didn't know about the shadow detection in Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, but I think I did see hiding in wardrobe somewhere before. Still - would be good to be able to do it in our favourite game. :) Hiding in certain spots, combined with some AI activities (like some lady looking into wardrobe from time to time etc...) could be an interesting gameplay addition.
Also - leaving footprints inside houses (dirt, snow etc...) should be a part of the system. And some cloths to clean them up...
Grandmauden on 24/11/2017 at 00:19
The Thief reboot let you hide inside lockers. In fact, doing so was mandatory to complete one of Basso's sidequests, as the combination of a safe was written inside a locker.