Yandros on 24/11/2017 at 15:15
Quote Posted by PinkDot
Also - leaving footprints inside houses (dirt, snow etc...) should be a part of the system. And some cloths to clean them up...
I think this is the point where gameplay design has to trump realism.
DarkThief Darek on 24/11/2017 at 15:52
I can't add anything to the question, because everything I wanted to say has already been said. (silhouettes, light reflection from surfaces, human eyes can adapt to the darkness)
... maybe one other thing: In real life the surface you walk on doesn't make that much of a difference. Especially not marble.
And a wooden floor can be incredible loud if it's old creaky wood. I think Thief would be far more realistically if running would be far more punished but marble and iron floors would be less noisy if you sneak on them. But I definitely see the game design decision behind this. There is even an "Ultimate Difficulty Mod" that rewrote the whole floor tile noise aspect of the game, punishes running even on stone or wooden floor. Good stuff, but sadly underused.
Additionally I do want to hit on the lore assumption thing written by marbleman:
Quote Posted by marbleman
In addition, what Grandmauden said about silhouettes, let's not forget that Garrett can hide in "perfect shadows," making AIs oblivious that he is there even if they are bumping into him! Similarly, bumping into AIs does nothing.
There is an in-game justification for the former. Garrett does not simply become "darker" in shadows. He becomes transparent, blending in with the darkness.
As far as I know the guards will spot you in pitch black when you stay directly in front of them (even if you don't move). I always thought of a game design bug that the AI couldn't see you directly in front if you crouch down. And (maybe I'm wrong) I always thought this "behavior" was only in T2 and newdark, but never in T1/TG (without newdark). But I could be wrong.
But it's an interesting theory with the keepers and you also get an additional invisible boost if you stay or crouch down at a wall. (Maybe that was meant with blend with the shadows)
PinkDot on 27/11/2017 at 21:48
Quote Posted by Yandros
I think this is the point where gameplay design has to trump realism.
Depends how a level uses this game mechanics.
When I play FMs these days, I really can't believe how oblivious the guards are to what is happening in the surrounding environment. Unlocked doors, opened doors, windows, misplaced objects, missing people, broken stuff all around etc. etc... And even if a character ignores one of these things, that might be OK. But if one ignores dozens of these manifestations of a burglary, then there's something wrong with the person for sure. Oh, and also they never turn their heads towards the source of the noise!
I understand that turning a game into a life-simulator is never a great idea, but I believe it's possible to incorporate more real life phenomenons into gameplay qualities. Just everything has to be balanced and used appropriately in the actual level.
Esme on 28/11/2017 at 12:34
The AI can notice missing items and will alert on them, but I think it's got to be built in to the level by the designer, doesn't happen by default as far as I know
I think Ropes from rope arrows have tags that raise AI alert level by default, but after they see it a few times they stop being triggered, like with dead or unconscious bodies that you don't manage to hide
Perhaps this "suspicious" tag could be added to more elements, say if you climb out of water you leave a trail of wet footsteps which slowly evaporate but lead AI to you while they are there or the moss from a moss arrow suddenly appearing on a marble floor makes an AI alert & start searching
The moss thing might make the game harder by making the AI alert, but it could also be used to decoy AI away by shooting mossies in a path leading away from you, so swings and roundabouts
These would still have to be added by the level designer though, not sure how much work they'd be or if it was worth the effort
The Black Cat on 29/11/2017 at 08:32
The discussion about guards noticing missing items makes me think of Undercover. I know the hammerites notice if you steal treasures right in front of them, but do they notice missing items if they're not there when you steal them, but they're patrolling the area? I'm not sure how many parts of the mission this applies to considering that it's quite small, but I think there's a hammerite patrolling the graveyard area, where there are a few treasures lying around. Are there any missions in Thief 2 or 3 (I've only played Thief Gold) or any FMs where enemies notice if things have been stolen?
marbleman on 29/11/2017 at 11:55
NPCs notice missing loot in Thief 3, and it's annoying. Guards should not react to missing loot in Thief. It's not realistic, but it ruins the game otherwise making all AIs constantly alert.
On the other hand, I'd be all for them reacting more fiercely to the player's carelessness: moss patches, open doors, doused torches, hanging ropes etc.
Nameless Voice on 29/11/2017 at 13:50
I once built an AI suspiciousness system for a campaign (that never got far), where guards would notice all manner of suspicious things, from rope/moss arrows and flares, to doors left open, to loot missing, to guards missing, etc., and each time they would make note of it and gain "suspicion points". Once they had noticed enough suspicious things, they would not only go on alert, but would head to the guardroom and organise a room-to-room search of the entire building, including specifically searching obvious hiding-places such as inside cupboards and inside fireplaces.
This system was never used in an actual mission, though.
PinkDot on 29/11/2017 at 18:32
@Nameless Voice - sounds like a lot of work to script all that. Did the system work well? Or was this actually the reason why the campaign never got finished....?
I really like the idea of a greater change of AI behaviour upon a serious intrusion to the place. It bothers me when they may see a dead body of their colleagues, but get OK with that after a few moments. Surely, the body won't start to stink before the end of their shift, right...? ;)
Nameless Voice on 29/11/2017 at 20:49
The system was only put into a demo mission. It was mostly set up in a systematic manner, the only things that the level designer would have had to place were the search points (and markers for behaviours such as opening cupboard doors.)
I was only the technical / scripting person on the project, the overall cancellation of the project didn't really have that much to do with me.
DromEd-savvy people can check out the demo mission here: (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146106) Abandoned project: The City Project (~2005)
PinkDot on 30/11/2017 at 10:42
Thanks for the link - I'll defo have a look at it.