Blastfrog on 30/8/2014 at 04:43
I was thinking; Thieves' Guild would have worked so much better taking place directly before Assassins instead of directly afterwards, for narrative purposes. Thieves' Guild is commonly criticized for breaking the flow and pace of the TDP narrative by sticking a big wedge between Assassins and The Sword. Why is Garret bothering? He's already gotten revenge on them in Assassins, why do it again? Of course, this is just an idea to salvage and partially redeem an otherwise obnoxious splinter in the Thief 1 experience; it's probably better off being removed entirely, regardless.
Thoughts?
Swapping the two levels would have the following advantages:
1. Pace is not broken between Assassins and The Sword, as the former makes a great prelude to the latter. Bafford's to Bonehoard form their own self contained story arc; anything could've happened between Bonehoard and Assassins without being nearly as detrimental to the pace as wedging it into the middle (rather than between) a story arc.
2. If Guild's purpose was to flesh out the backstory of the criminal underground, it would be better as an introduction rather than an after-the-fact supplement. While Assassins tells you only what you really need to know, it is rather sparse ("oh, by the way there's these guys that want to co-opt Garret but have lost patience; have fun, now"). Revenge against Ramierez should be the climax to the criminal underground story. Droning on in a lower key for a long duration after the climax is bad storytelling.
3. The internal stress of the guild and the potential possibility that Garret was seen taking advantage of the situation (unskilled and/or reckless players) creates a stronger incentive for the guild leaders to finally snap and order a hit on Garret aside from just "we're fed up with him for blowing us off too many times".
The following are potential conflicts that would have to be sorted out:
1. This would break the lockpicking introduction. This could probably be circumvented by just giving keys. It might make the mission more tedius, but it's only a drop in the bucket given its overall absurd levels of existing tedium.
2. There might be AI conversations, movies or readables that conflict with its new position (maybe Ramierez getting disgraced by Garret is mentioned somewhere). This can be fixed by deleting/rewriting such conflicts.
Other complaints of mine regarding Thief Gold:
1. Bonehoard was better in TDP. I like the brown texturing in the halls of echoing repose, it set a great mood that this place is both overwhelming and dead. Gold makes it look too colorful and somewhat relieves some of that tension. I also thought it was a bit dumb how that one stone structure was changed to wood. Is jumping really that hard for people? The fire shadow is also a pain in the ass, I'd rather conserve my fire arrows than to deal with that jerk.
2. This one is more common and agreeable; the mages added to The Lost City ruin the atmosphere of isolation and discovering a long-lost city for yourself.
bassoferrol on 30/8/2014 at 11:08
... and that's why I play Thief Gold with Bonehoard's from Thief Dark.
Someone call me a jerk.
Fallen+Keeper on 30/8/2014 at 21:20
I think it works better the way it is.
Ramirez has nothing to do with the Downwinders who are an independent organization protected by noblemen with ties to the criminal world. Neither Reuben nor Donal are wardens.
Having Assassins after Bonehoard makes sense. Garrett wasn't a famous yet at that time, but was already hunted by the Wardens who tried to convince him to join their "tables". Horn of Quintus was regarded as a mythical object, probably located in a place where nobody dared to venture into. So disposing of the infamous horn surely attracted some more attention of those who kept ears to the ground. And Garrett was invited once again and once again he refused. The result is Assassins. No proof, but facts fit my theory.
This is where Garrett becomes famous, because you cannot be the best thief in the business and also the most famous one. But that feat he pulled off at the Ramirez mansion brought him some more publicity and Downwinders, who already knew about him, started to regard him as "stupid and sly enough" to do anything.
Having Thieves' Guild before Assassins would have no more sense than it has now. Frankly, in my opinion, that mission has no sense at all, apart from showing a bad part of the town. It is a useless detour, sure, but it would be so at any point of the narrative. It would be great in a "mission pack" though ;)
Gooby on 4/9/2014 at 18:20
Quote Posted by Blastfrog
I was thinking; Thieves' Guild would have worked so much better taking place directly before Assassins instead of directly afterwards, for narrative purposes. Thieves' Guild is commonly criticized for breaking the flow and pace of the TDP narrative by sticking a big wedge between Assassins and The Sword. Why is Garret bothering? He's already gotten revenge on them in Assassins, why do it again? Of course, this is just an idea to salvage and partially redeem an otherwise obnoxious splinter in the Thief 1 experience; it's probably better off being removed entirely, regardless.
Thoughts?
Swapping the two levels would have the following advantages:
1. Pace is not broken between Assassins and The Sword, as the former makes a great prelude to the latter. Bafford's to Bonehoard form their own self contained story arc; anything could've happened between Bonehoard and Assassins without being nearly as detrimental to the pace as wedging it into the middle (rather than between) a story arc.
2. If Guild's purpose was to flesh out the backstory of the criminal underground, it would be better as an introduction rather than an after-the-fact supplement. While Assassins tells you only what you really need to know, it is rather sparse ("oh, by the way there's these guys that want to co-opt Garret but have lost patience; have fun, now"). Revenge against Ramierez should be the climax to the criminal underground story. Droning on in a lower key for a long duration after the climax is bad storytelling.
3. The internal stress of the guild and the potential possibility that Garret was seen taking advantage of the situation (unskilled and/or reckless players) creates a stronger incentive for the guild leaders to finally snap and order a hit on Garret aside from just "we're fed up with him for blowing us off too many times".
The following are potential conflicts that would have to be sorted out:
1. This would break the lockpicking introduction. This could probably be circumvented by just giving keys. It might make the mission more tedius, but it's only a drop in the bucket given its overall absurd levels of existing tedium.
2. There might be AI conversations, movies or readables that conflict with its new position (maybe Ramierez getting disgraced by Garret is mentioned somewhere). This can be fixed by deleting/rewriting such conflicts.
Other complaints of mine regarding Thief Gold:
1. Bonehoard was better in TDP. I like the brown texturing in the halls of echoing repose, it set a great mood that this place is both overwhelming and dead. Gold makes it look too colorful and somewhat relieves some of that tension. I also thought it was a bit dumb how that one stone structure was changed to wood. Is jumping really that hard for people? The fire shadow is also a pain in the ass, I'd rather conserve my fire arrows than to deal with that jerk.
2. This one is more common and agreeable; the mages added to The Lost City ruin the atmosphere of isolation and discovering a long-lost city for yourself.
Gotta agree with you on the fire shadow! Try killing him with sword and 1hp (Damn you fall damage!) and then after you light up the torches those taffing zombies appear out of nowhere! :mad:
downwinder on 7/9/2014 at 10:18
i had both thief 1 dark project and thief gold,i happen to like thief 1 dark project better for flow,and the only mission in gold that was good was the opera house=due to that guy who sang in the cave lol
Gooby on 10/9/2014 at 06:38
Dark Project is better? Please explain...
Fallen+Keeper on 11/9/2014 at 17:27
The Dark Project is more tightly designed from the narrative point of view, but yeah, it's a technically inferior to Gold. I think it's just nostalgia speaking...
TannisRoot on 19/9/2014 at 12:51
Like many, I am not fond of Thieves Guild. I think it's a great concept, but it's ruined by a poor map and samey tunnels that make it easy to get lost. Because the level is laborious, I may not have pushed through it if I hadn't just completed the excellent level Assassins!
