ZylonBane on 4/6/2006 at 13:45
Quote Posted by jermi
These days, if you want to make games, you
cannot have issues with cross-platforming.
RS didn't say it wasn't an issue. He said it wasn't in the top ten-- which means those top ten issues must have been real doozies.
Note how he refers to the canceled LGS game as "Thief 3", but specifically does not confer the same title on the Ion Storm incarnation.
jtr7 on 4/6/2006 at 19:54
Thanks, Digi, for bringing that site to my attention. The potential is great, if the usual enemies (time, money, greed, poor leadership, etc.) don't dumb it down or destroy it.
Randy's one of those guys that seems like a friend even though we don't know each other much at all. I'd like to see him (or any of our dev. heroes, for that matter) given free reign on something, anything, in the gaming industry.
deadman on 5/6/2006 at 17:32
Personally, and not to rag on Thief 3, I found further confirmation that yes, the game was rushed. Many of the game systems feel unpolished and the game overall feels like a beta version to me. Sadly, I didn't feel the magic that I did with the first two. I make the comparison of the "first" three Star Wars films compared to any of the newer ones; they're in the same universe, that can't be denied, but something's missing -- the magic just isn't the same. Even so, I can't place undue importance on its unpolished nature, because I think much of it came down to different art direction and architectural influences.
It is a major letdown that we missed out on the promise of vast open-ended city sections, but more than anything, it's sad this isn't the only or first example of deadlines determining quality. How many games, in the past, present, and future, won't live up to the dreams or will have features gutted as a result of money issues? As I understand it, games take plenty of time to develop and publishers get eager to see a turnaround on their funding (not to say this makes them greedy; we all need to put food on the table).
As for free reign, jtr7, I think we'd all like to live in that perfect world where devs have unlimited time/resources and no pressures with which to limit their creativity and aspirations. Only some would succeed in such an environment, however. If you had a perfectionist without any deadlines (and one who could easily lose sight of an end result in the developing process), you could have someone building a game their entire lives and not finishing it :p An extreme example, but deadlines and limits can be a good thing, especially if the lack of unlimited funds and time means coming up with unique and economic ways to get things done.
Also, I'm wary about "Project Gray Company" with that I've experienced in Morrowind (and heard about in Oblivion). With such vast open-ended worlds, something inevitably suffers, or else the game takes decades to build. Morrowind isn't much compelling as a story, the AI are too generic and lifeless, and the world feels just as dead. This said, I've yet to play either of the Gothic titles, which I have heard don't suffer from as much of the steep downfalls of TES titles.
Why should we be sad if we don't see any more Thief titles? Unless things entirely turnaround and there's a huge market for it with the full confidence of the publisher (i.e., millions of gamers suddenly waking up to our universe and saying "We haven't played any of the earlier titles, but we want a new Thief game!"), it's likely we'd have a repeat of 3, which, depending on who you are may be a good thing. Anyway, we'll always have the first two, and just maybe some of us will go on to working for a project where we'll make an eerily-similar steampunk game centered around stealth ;) Maybe the Dark Mod will capture some of that old grit and atmosphere...
New Horizon on 5/6/2006 at 18:04
Quote Posted by deadman
Maybe the Dark Mod will capture some of that old grit and atmosphere...
Sure it will...but remember, it's just a toolset...until somebody builds a fan mission with it. We've been patiently waiting for classic Thief fan mission designers, texture artists and modelers to come over and help us recreate that world that we love so much...but for the most part, it's mostly just us...plugging away as much as we can.
I can't understand why more Thief 1 and 2 FM makers haven't come to help out. Not only is it a chance to help recreate the classic atmosphere of Thief in a modern engine, it's a chance to observe how hard it is to make a Thief styled game...even in an engine as flexible as Doom 3. It has given me quite a bit of insight into how it might have been when LGS was trying to create Thief for the first time. We're building it all over again from scratch...I do hope that more Thief 1 and 2 FM authors from the community come on board sooner than later....otherwise, we're going to end up releasing a toolset with a limited number of models and textures to build with. There is only so much that the core team can pull off alone.
deadman on 5/6/2006 at 18:25
You're absolutely right, of course. I've actually been thinking of buying Doom 3 for some time to try to learn it and work with Dark Mod assets you're making. No matter what happens, I think Thief 3 will always feel like it's missing something to me (unless every entire asset were changed to a more Thief 1/2 art style). It's impossible to get that realization out of my head as I try to learn the editor, still with the nagging thoughts that the FM possibilities, even with an engine of 2004, are limited because of the bad implementation of dynamic lighting.
Actually, that's misleading. I will buy Doom 3 so I can learn the editor and hopefully build something that harks back to the first games, and yes, something that fans will enjoy as well. It's what, $20 bucks these days? After that, hopefully a new system that can handle Doom 3 at more than a crawl :laff:.
Too bad you guys won't be able to port everything over to the new Crysis engine when it comes out *ebil*
Vigil on 5/6/2006 at 18:25
Well, to be fair I can't remember the TDM team ever trumpeting a call to FM makers from the rooftops before, and I think most FM makers are patiently waiting for it to come out before they start working with the tools - in fact, I would think that most like me assumed that working with the TDM toolset wouldn't even be possible before it was officially released.
Vigil on 5/6/2006 at 18:59
Erm. Not to divert this thread any further off course, but all of the threads you just linked to are calls for texture artists or modellers, not mission designers. And as far as I know from Fingernail you guys are doing just fine for textures now?
I really think you do need to post that clarion call thread to get the word out that you want beta mission mappers, because very few (if any) of the FM authors are aware there is such a need or opportunity.
Raven on 5/6/2006 at 19:17
and you scare off any unproven wanna-bes with your "we don't want time wasters" rhetoric.
Raven - (unofficial Dark Mod devils advocate... current dark mod outcome projection: it is going to kick ass!)
New Horizon on 5/6/2006 at 20:27
Quote Posted by Vigil
Erm. Not to divert this thread any further off course, but all of the threads you just linked to are calls for texture artists or modellers, not mission designers. And as far as I know from Fingernail you guys are doing just fine for textures now?
I really think you do need to post that clarion call thread to get the word out that you want beta mission mappers, because very few (if any) of the FM authors are aware there is such a need or opportunity.
No, the message is getting lost somewhere. :)
We need community 'designers' who are level designers, texture artists, modelers...etc. Not in the strictest sense of the term FM designer...we don't want to take people on to just start building missions with what we've already made...but rather people who have the skill to create Thief styled textures and models for their own missions. That way, you end up with coherent texture themes. :)
Aside from any misunderstandings that the community may have had about what we are looking for...it would still be to their benefit to get onboard and contribute to these tools 'before' we release them...that way, there should be fewer things to nit pick and possibley be disappointed in.
