Overman on 1/1/2009 at 05:54

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I recently finished a TG, T2, T2X, T3 marathon over the past few weeks (:cool: :cool: ), and have come to certain conclusions about the story. I'm sure most of this material has been discussed here before, but I wasn't able to find any related posts, other than the 'Unanswered questions' thread.

I'm going to share my perceptions of the factions in the Thief universe and how they influence (or are influenced by) the City and the general plot. It's not intended to be another "Thief 4" thread, though some consideration to the last cutscene in T3 will be considered.

The factions seem to be symbolic of the different alignments available in most Dungeons and Dragons games. The Hammers (Lawful), the Pagans (Chaotic), and the Keepers (Nuetral) are equally represented through the values practiced and portrayed throughout the game.

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The Hammers - vs - The Pagans (a comparison of features and dichotomies)

Industry - Agriculture
Synthetic - Natural
Law & Order - Chaos & Freedom
Divine Fate & 'Builder's will' - Randomness, natural selection
Rigidity & Stubborness - Flexibility & Adaptability

Structured hierarchy (ie, Catholic church), centralized power - Loose confederation with vague leadership

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IMO, the Builder resembles the god of the Old Testament. Angry, vengeful, and punitive. Much like an abusive parent.

The Hammers themselves can be considered to be the fantasy counterpart of modern day religious zealots of all stripes; especially those willing to use violence and coercion in the name of religion to reach their goals. It's also reminiscent of the Catholic church during the dark ages, especially with references to inquisitions.

The Trickster is a figure considered sacred to the Pagans, but he is somewhat of a demi-god...a once-human with supernatural power(?), or a fiend of much questionable origins.

He is referenced throughout the story, even after his physical form is destroyed in TG, ...although the 'Woodsie Lord' is also referenced, whom may be a superior deity(?). This leads me to think that the Pagans are not monotheists like the Hammers (or narcissists like Karras), but have a much more pantheistic view of the world...that the Earth is alive and should be worshipped.

The Pagans somewhat resemble the Celtic pagans of earlier times, but can also be thought of as modern day eco-terrorists, anarchists, or radical environmentalists. In religious terms I think of Pagan religion as Wicca, and the Hammers as Islam.

The Keepers are a faction which values neutrality in the affairs between the others. They strive to be objective observers and maintain the 'balance' between the opposing forces...good vs evil, industry vs nature, or in this case, Hammerites vs Pagans. They are also skilled librarians and recorders of history and predictors of future problems through the Keeper practice of learning the 'Glyphs'.

Other minor factions include the Hand brotherhood in TG. They seemed to be an organization of mages who had mastered the elements of nature and used it as magic to achieve their purposes. They don't appear in T2 or T3. I often wonder if they were perhaps a renegade offshoot of the Pagans...perhaps those who desired an orderly, structured approach to learning magic and mastering the natural environment...as opposed to the free-spirited approach that Pagan culture would seem to foster(?).

The Kurshok are revealed as another minor faction in T3. They are an amphibious race of humanoids that are somehow related to the Pagans. I read somewhere that they were the "original favored" by the Trickster, but were driven underground by a cataclysm...or were driven there by their human (Pagan) opponents(?).

Just some randomn brain farts and musings. Any comments (or answers)?

Is this an accurate understanding of the Thief universe?

:cool:

jtr7 on 1/1/2009 at 07:00

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DUNhistory.sch:
[INDENT]"Four clicks for the pride of existence. We are Kurshok. Most bold, most brave, most clever among all the world's creatures. Scholars and adventurers most favored in the eyes of Him, the Leaf Lord. Five clicks for Gruliac, most favored of all and King of the Kurshok. Human and tree bow before him, and we bathe in glory. Three clicks for the vanity of pride. Our people built towering castles and mighty ships. Among all the Leaf Lord's creatures, we were most favored. Still not content, we wished to be set apart. But still we were favored, and the Leaf Lord gifted the King called Gruliac once more with a golden crown of power. Two clicks for the folly of vanity. Gruliac donned the crown and felt its power. Gruliac the beautiful. Gruliac the strong. Gruliac the mighty spoke: 'I am greater than the Leaf Lord himself!' But dark and terrible is the Leaf Lord, and as great was his love for the Kurshok, now twice as great was his anger. One click for the doom of folly. The Leaf Lord opened the earth and banished us beneath it. Here we dwell forever with no lord or ally, no sun or moon, no rain or wind. The Leaf Lord reached out for the gift he had given us. Gruliac fought him bravely and kept for us the crown, but his hand was destroyed. As are we."[/INDENT]
His hand was kept by the pagans, and it is known as the Jacknall's Paw.

The Hammerites were based on the Knights Templar, with a bit of Spanish Inquisition, the carpenter/builder Christ, and the metaphor of pounding unbelievers with their beliefs. There seems to be a bit of the Hammers from Pink Floyd's "The Wall", as well. :p Certainly there is more.
The Hammerites used to live similar to pagans. It wouldn't surprise me if they were pagans, but are too proud to state it fully. The discovery of the hammer, and creation of carpentry to build dwellings outside the forest is at the root of their order. Since they say the chisel is most holy, I can only assume the beauty of carving and working fine detail into their stonework and beams is the highest form of worship, next to wall-building.:D

The Woodise Lord and Viktoria are nature guardians representing flora and fauna, wood nymph and goat-god, dryad and satyr.
The Pagans are never heard to worship anyone other than the Woodsie Lord, although they adore their Lady of the Green, Viktoria, and consider the Green to be heaven. They are agriculturalists and botanists, etc.
There's debate over whether the Trickster is truly dead, or if only his mortal body was killed. I entertain the fanon idea that the nature guardian demi-god was bound to his body through ritual runic tattoos. He is based on Pan, with many references to the goat-god/faun, lord of the underworld.

The Hand Mages came "(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1707123#post1707123) from the East", and are the most insular of all. They live outside The City, and even though their prophecies and goals involve the Talismans, they have Captain Regalio seeking out the Talismans for them. They perform experiments on animals.



Some ideas to work with, to hone your thesis.:cheeky:

jtr7 on 1/1/2009 at 08:14

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Thief is such a wonderful amalgam.:thumb:

Gambit on 1/1/2009 at 14:09

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Interesting, Odin, Thor and Loki !

I also thought about a Garrett = Alice in Wonderland.
That´s because...

Throught the Looking Glass = The title of Alice´s second adventure.
Garrett Kid following Artemus = Alice following the White Rabbit
Garrett first mission is falling in a Bafford´s well = Entrance to Wonderland
Little World at Constantine´s mansion = All the size changes at Alice´s book
Constantine´s Mansion and The Maw = Wonderland

Petike the Taffer on 1/1/2009 at 16:12

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Me too. They are a splinter group, but attained the status of a crucial faction during the height of their power. On the plus side, the Mechs created a lot of helpful technology to aid the people of the city, and are for equality between men and women in church terms as well... On the downside, they had zero empathy for living nature (severely polluting the enviroment, cleansing the country of greens, hunting burricks to the brink of extinction) and were utterly fanatical compared to the devout, but trustworthy Hammers.



I always viewed Karras as a typical "missunderstood genius". He was probably respected by other Hammerites for his work and achievements, but mocked for his speech disorder. After years of being mentally and emotionaly bullied, he swore revenge and after gaining enough support from younger Hammers, went on to carry out his grand scheme of "teaching everybody a lesson". The "I'll show them, I'll show them, they'll pay for making fun of me !" syndrome... In the end, Karras was a human wreck, a sad madman with a severe Messianistic complex, believing his own lies and blaming everyone, but himself...

Hm, since LGS got a lot of inspiration for Thief from Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose, I can see an interesting homage to a character from that book via the person of Karras : If you read the whole thing, you'll know, that the main "villain" was a Spanish monk named Jorge, the keeper of the abbey's ancient library. Self-confident, overly serious and clearly fanatical, he tried to prevent the others from finding the long lost copy of Aristotle's Poetica, containing a chapter about humour. Due to his absolutely zealous nature, Jorge believed laughter and humour to be "the tools of Satan" and blamed human imperfection on it. In the end, he was responsible for the fire that destroyed the abbey and the whole library with thousands of precious texts of knowledge and art gathered during the many centuries. Pretty parallel to the personality and madness of Karass.