Herr_Garrett on 5/5/2009 at 18:05
Quote Posted by Jah
I hope you're being cynical there. Those who run a City, state or organization
can use force and torture, because there's no one to stop them, but it doesn't mean it's morally justifiable.
Not really. What's better, a hot poker up in someone's arse or a war? I'm
not saying that torture is a goor or moral thing, but that it is sometimes unaviodable.
I don't go around torturing people, and neither would I like to be tortured, to make it absolutely clear. But sometimes, for a common aim, you need to make sacrifices (like forcing yourself to use torture on someone who otherwise would not volunteer vital information).
I mean, this is how organizations work.
Dante on 5/5/2009 at 19:49
Quote Posted by Stath MIA
they opted to not use the Final Glyph, preferring to let the Hag (also a Keeper) to take out much of the City than to give up their powers thereby proving their commitment to maintaining the Balance false.
But it could be argued that preservation of their powers will better keep the balance in the long term.
Stath MIA on 5/5/2009 at 23:24
I'd say the Hammers tactics may be harsh without them the City would be an even worse place than it is, they keep the peace. Being in the City is sort of like being in Texas, you only break the law if you
know can get away with it, otherwise it's the chair for you. I wouldn't want to mess with the Hammers.
Quote Posted by Jah
the games take place under special circumstances when the City is in turmoil.
When is the City
not in turmoil?:confused::cheeky:
Quote Posted by Dante
But it could be argued that preservation of their powers will better keep the balance in the long term.
I'm sure that was their excuse.
Jah on 6/5/2009 at 07:45
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
But sometimes, for a common aim, you need to make sacrifices (like forcing yourself to use torture on someone who otherwise would not volunteer vital information).
Which is precisely the excuse various extremely unpleasant organizations and regimes have used to justify torture and other atrocities. Doesn't sound so good if you happen to disagree with their notion of "common aim".
Anyhow, as far as legal proceedings in the Thief universe are concerned, we know hardly anything about them. In fact, even the division of law enforcement duties isn't quite clear. Why are some thieves, for example, locked up in a secular prison (Pavelock) and others in a Hammerite prison (Cragscleft)? Do the Hammers enforce law independently of the City Watch (if so, what kind of powers do they have compared to the Watch?), or has the Watch simply outsourced the incarceration of some of its prisoners to the Hammers?
Herr_Garrett on 6/5/2009 at 17:06
Quote Posted by Jah
Anyhow, as far as legal proceedings in the Thief universe are concerned, we know hardly anything about them. In fact, even the division of law enforcement duties isn't quite clear. Why are some thieves, for example, locked up in a secular prison (Pavelock) and others in a Hammerite prison (Cragscleft)? Do the Hammers enforce law independently of the City Watch (if so, what kind of powers do they have compared to the Watch?), or has the Watch simply outsourced the incarceration of some of its prisoners to the Hammers?
Cragscleft was to be closed down in DP already, and in MA and DS it does not appear, so presumably it
was shut down. I guess in MA Shoalsgate, and in DS Pavelock took its place as detention facilities.
jtr7 on 6/5/2009 at 17:19
Shoalsgate and Pavelock were strictly City Watch, and we get the possible idea from TDP/Gold that the Hammers only incarcerate people if the City Watch doesn't do their job.
Not that these prove anything other than Hammers have/had at least one prison:
t3_idle3: "Ain't nobody ever gave me nothin'. They don't know what it's like...someone like me. I've seen a Hammer prison, I have. And from the losing side of the bars...don't know how I made it out alive."
s5_obs_pagan_friend1, m5_obs_pagan_friend1, c5_obs_pagan_friend1: "Be careful. You don't wanna see no Hammer prison."
Meisterdieb on 6/5/2009 at 21:59
IIRC, there's a note in the OM The Sword where they quote a Hammerite saying something like "If you don't punish the criminals then we shall".
I believe that while the City Watch is the primary law enforcement, the Hammers sometimes take it upon themselves to enforce the law if they believe the city watch is too lenient.
jtr7 on 6/5/2009 at 23:08
The one you're thinking of is exactly the one I was referring to:
M6CLIP: "THE CITY TRIBUNE
A woman from Shalebridge who was acquitted of charges of robbery in a city court last week has been kidnapped by members of the Order of the Hammer. The woman is apparently being held in squalid conditions in Cragscleft prison. Whereas the Hammerites did not cite any official reason for the incarceration, one of the Order was quoted, saying, 'She hath sinned in The Builder's eyes, and thy slothful laws hath touched her not at all.'"
Jah on 7/5/2009 at 07:38
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
I guess in MA Shoalsgate, and in DS Pavelock took its place as detention facilities.
Since Shoalsgate is basically a police station rather than a prison, I always assumed the detention cells there were just a temporary lockup for suspects, and that those who were found guilty and convicted were sent somewhere else to serve the actual sentence.
jtr7 on 7/5/2009 at 07:54
I don't know. Shoalsgate Prison has solitary confinement, interrogation/torture, only 8-cells, a morgue, and the worst prisoner of all was to be left in there to rot. An oversight was the lack of a prisoner roster. Now, it may be like a county jail in The City, where certain types are shipped off elsewhere, but there's no evidence either way.
