Petike the Taffer on 1/1/2009 at 17:34
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
What? What? I never knew that! The godsdamn motherf*ckers!
Just overhear the first conversation between the two male guards while entering the ruins of the Lost City. The younger one states, that their extermination hunting program is going well and burricks seem to be iradicated in the entire cavern. The older one is pleased with the progress and swears at "those filthy creatures". ;) :p
Overman on 1/1/2009 at 18:34
(I meant to add this as the second part to my analysis)
In Thief Gold, the story follows Garrett through a series of missions in which he is unknowingly being used by a Pagan deity known as the 'Trickster', apparently in human form, in order to acquire certain artifacts. The Keepers appear throughout the game, attempting to persuade Garrett to be aware of impending dangers and other vague threats. The Hammers, who were portrayed as sinister competitors, are later grateful for his behavior, as G defeats the Trickster...or at least his physical presence.
In Thief MA, Garrett is persuaded differently; that he must aid the Pagans against the Mechanists, a radical (perhaps progressive??) offshoot of the Hammerite faction, whose deranged leader is planning on destroying all natural life in the City and populating it with his robots and mech devices. G succeeds, and in doing so, has now struck a 'balance' between the extremists of industry and nature (TG).
T2x, while it didn't involve Garrett directly, had excellent references to the main story line and factions involved. It did a great job of depicting the growing discontent among the dogmatic Hammers, and the early stages of the Mechanist influence.
TDS involves a more intricate story...one in which the Keepers are exposed as a defunct, corrupt organization. They seem to have fallen from grace and no longer value objective observation, as they are clearly blind to the 'Dark Age', the pending destruction (or rebirth?) of their own order. The Pagans and Hammers have stepped up their mutual animosity, and persist in bringing their war openly to the streets of the City. T3 ends with Garrett being revealed as the one 'True Keeper', as he has maintained neutrality throughout the series (manifested to the player in the form of his apathy and cynical perspective). By maintaining the 'balance' of factions in the City throughout the series by thwarting the intentions of the extremist elements, Garrett displays a sense of 'balance' and respect for neutrality that the Keepers, in their arrogance, pride, and lack of self-analysis, have betrayed.
Even his looting and robbing can be seen as an urge to correct perceived injustices in the City (rich vs poor). However, one should note that Garrett is pretty much an equal opportunity theif, as he steals from just about anyone he can get close to...include the poor and working class of the City.
At the end, the story comes full circle, with Garrett nabbing a young thief attempting to rob him. Light comes over the City, and we are led to believe that a new era has begun. We can conclude that Garrett doesn't take on a superhero role, but simply returns to his normal life. Perhaps being called on again in the future to 'correct an imbalance' in the City or elsewhere. Some have hinted that the little girl in the final cutscene was to be his first apprentice. IMO, continuing the Thief series w/o Garrett wouldnt be genuine.
jtr7 on 1/1/2009 at 19:49
The Mechanists splintered off from the Hammerites. Karras took advantage of the chaos brought on by the Trickster's failed coup. The "Karras Upheavals" were ready to explode at that time, like a charis-matic Hitler fomenting a movement building up to genocide. Karras gave Garrett his mechanical eye, to woo him to his side, rather than have Garrett as a formidable enemy.
The Mechanists are a Faction. The City Watch of TMA, under Sheriff Truart, is a short-lived Faction. The Kurshok were no more a faction than the Rat Beasts, they just had a richer, stronger story. They did nothing to influence the balance either way. Most of the Mechanists are former Hammerites, liberalized, progressive, rather than conservative.
If the Wardens and the Thieves' Guild hadn't been so casually undermined, they could've been a Faction, and they almost were. Again, although they are corrupt and are a blight on The City, they don't really influence the balance either way. If Garrett's assassination had been successful, or even had put him out of commission, then they would've definitely been a Faction.
The Keepers are a Faction working vicariously through Garrett, and influencing others for his benefit, though G would disagree.
All the factions show a good side (subjective to each player), but they all make a good point, and take it all too far (Karras further than all the others), and use it to justify evil acts.
The Woodsie Lord is the bread-winner for the forest family, feeding manfools to the flora--at least, the blood of manfools, but sometimes whole manfools, as well. Out of revenge for the carnivorous eating habits of the city-heads, the Leaf Devil tears the city-heads open or asunder to feed his leafy companions. If the stained-glass image is any indication, plumsies may get their healing powers from mansie-foolsie blood. The shamans bleed themselves upon the roads to force rapid growth of plants to break the roads down. He am the leaf that feeders on the fleshed ones. Although the Thief universe is rife with this concept, it generally goes unnoticed, and part of that is because no one really can blame them for being upset at the destruction of their world. The pagans' idea of a good death is to die where they can become plant food. The Hammers are willing to help them with this, to strike them into the earth forthwith, and the "heathen" land consume them.
Overman on 1/1/2009 at 20:05
@ jtr7
His hand was kept by the pagans, and it is known as the Jacknall's Paw
Thanks for the info, that helps.
Ok, so the Kurshok were 'banished' from the surface by the Trickster for their pride. Sounds Biblical in metaphor (ie, ancient Jews being purged from their homeland). There could be some variations of explanation on this theme;
a-The Kurshok are a race that is less servile than humans, and are thus regarded by the Trickster as untrustworthy minions.
b-The trickster may regard them as lesser beings of nature, and therefore, a weak expression of his own power (or pride?).
c-Same as 'b', except that the Kurshok race simply failed to evolve naturally (as a modern understanding of evolution includes a progression from amphibian to mammal), and this angered (embarrassed?) the Trickster...who took it as a personal insult.
The Hammerites used to live similar to pagans.
Is this stated or alluded to in the series? I dont recall hearing that.
However, I think it can be assumed (from a evolutionary perspective)...and one could conclude that the Pagans haven't evolved as have the Hammers, at least in a social and cultural context. I don't like this perspective because it implies that the Hammers are superior to the Pagans, wheras they are simply two sides of the same coin.
OTOH, one could assume that both factions evolved culturally, but that they chose different spiritual paths. But the monotheism vs polytheism debate is irrelevant here.
It wouldn't surprise me if they were pagans, but are too proud to state it fully.
IMO, their pride is what makes them human. Being self-aware of this probably causes a lot of distress among individual Hammers.
Knowing that they are just as human (fallible, imperfect) as others is what lends strength to their hatred and intolerance of the sin they readily identify in others. They see themselves in others; the dark and primitive side of their human nature which they both hate and fear. Their acts of self-righteousness are really acts of self-loathing.
The discovery of the hammer, and creation of carpentry to build dwellings outside the forest is at the root of their order. Since they say the chisel is most holy, I can only assume the beauty of carving and working fine detail into their stonework and beams is the highest form of worship, next to wall-building.
Yes, the act of creation (as well as destruction!) is valued highly among both the Hammers and Pagans. If they are to be considered acts of worship, then its also interesting to note that meditation and private study were often reviled (at least by the Hammers in notes and documentation). Meditation (and intense study) seems to be the domain of the passive Keepers...not a form of worship, but rather a ritual of significance within the faction.
Interestingly, the Keepers are the passive referee and impartial observer. what do they create, other than self-sustaining information? Even with all their information and prophecy, they couldn't forsee their own doom. Their faction philosophy is inherently contradictory and circular in nature; they feed off themselves.
If the Keepers are to resemble a modern religion, I'd have to go with Buddhism. Passive, pacifistic, meditational, introspective...
The Pagans are never heard to worship anyone other than the Woodsie Lord, although they adore their Lady of the Green, Viktoria, and consider the Green to be heaven.
Yes, that is my perception as well. And I agree with your assessment of the Trickster 'mortality' debate.
re: the 'Green' may just be a fancy way of saying Earth, as most Earth-based religions seem to regard the living world as a living god/goddess. Returning to the green can literally interpreted as 'ashes to ashes, dust to dust'...human remains eventually decompose and return to the same substance the Earth is made of.
re: The Hand
The Hand Mages came "from the East", and are the most insular of all.
Solabusca: the naming of the Mages tends to have a pseudo-Arabian Nights feel; I'd wager they're intended to be representative of the Islamic Golden Era/Renaissance trader/scholars - mystics and alchemists and traders of great cunning, if you will.
Interesting! The 'eastern flavor' may have an Islamic influence, especially evidenced by the Arabic-sounding names, but IMO it was used to make them seem foreign and exotic to a Western audience.
Insular, good way to describe them. They are definitely the most mysterious.
They perform experiments on animals.
Well, that goes back to my theory on them being a Pagan splinter group...one that branched off, evolved its practice of elemental magic, and formed societies in distant lands. :thumb:
Thanks for the feedback! :)
jtr7 on 1/1/2009 at 20:35
Cool! More ideas to consider:
I actually consider the Hammers and Pagans to be two sides of the same coin. They act like Abraham and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, both prideful and forever at odds, yet sharing many traits under the façade of opposite philosophies.
It's indeed possible that many of these groups were all one society in the past, and splintered off. Splintering is common in Thief, and yeah, it's very human. The pagans worship the creators of the natural world; the Hammers worship the one who uses the natural materials to create things that can conquer many "problems" with the natural world; the Hand Mages have built an entire way of living and thinking around the elemental stuff the natural materials are made of, and we never know what their ultimate goal is, though necromancy seems to be the one thing they are worried about, which also grieves the Hammers, but doesn't seem worry the Pagans too much--usually.
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:14
@ van hell
I still maintain there's norse mythology in there. A righteous god whose attribute is a hammer on one side, a trickster type malicious god on the other, and then there's that hangman stained glass design at Constantine's, which seals the deal for me as it pretty clearly puts Garrett in the position of Odin (also: one eye, a hood, etc.).
Yes, I'm sure there are influences from a variety of pagan mythologies present. Some have compared the Hammers to Freemasonry. The hammer is a fitting symbol of their 'religion', as it is both a tool of creation, and a weapon of destruction...highlighting the paradoxical nature of their faction.
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:15
@ melan
They are not simply an order of religious fanatics, they are an order of religious fanatics who seem to have modernised an entire world, bringing it up to Industrial Revolution level technology while society is still a hodge-podge of mediaeval and Renaissance patterns.
I wouldn't credit them with 'modernizing an entire world'...I think they may have adopted industry and its features (replaceable parts, steam power) as a foundation for their beliefs, but IMO its far-fetched to say that they alone are responsible for the social progress made via the worship of production through woodworking, masonry, metalworking, etc.
IMO, the Hammers used 'industry' as an opportunity to reform existing views on nature, morality, and concepts of a 'higher power'.
Then, during the course of The Dark Project, the Hammers turn out to be not just more agreeable than first presented, but actually right -- the Trickster was not a metaphor after all, but a real tangible force seeking to bring humans back to caveman levels for very dubious reasons. Ecoterrorists and radical environmentalists indeed.
The Hammer's being 'right' about the Trickster obviously doesn't make them 'right' about everything else. Even though their paranoia and vigilance is vindicated by the end of T1, they are still a faction capable of great destruction and 'evil'. After all, they gave birth to the Mechanists...who could be thought of in the modern vein as having fascist/communist tendencies.
I would also disagree about the Trickster's intentions. His goal wasn't to destroy 'progress' and return all humankind to 'caveman' days, but to remind the world that it is subject to nature, not above it. Like the notorious Unabomber, he probably saw technology and the industrial revolution as step back (regression) in the progress of civilization. People forget their natural heritage when surrounded by steel and stone.
He was an extremist of course, and was willing to use violence as the means to making the world 'greener' and nature-friendly. 'Eco-terrorists and radical environmentalists' think along the same lines, although they typically target large corporations and their property/assets for destruction.
The Metal Age complicates the picture a lot. Were it not for the personal continuity with Garrett, so much had changed that I could imagine it being set 100-200 years after the events of Dark Project. Food for thought.
Well, the T2X episodes do a good job of 'filling in the blanks'...its best to be played as a prequel to T2, not after it, IMO. Largely because it depicts the growing rifts in the Hammer orthodoxy, and the emergence of Karras and his power.
Now, for the next question, was the Master Builder a god or just a venerated founder figure?
Probably both.
One of the first craftsman to truly grasp the 'big picture' that technology and industry could influence society (for the better), and to articulate these values. After centuries (?) pass, and generations of Hammers follow his original teachings, his legacy transforms from skilled craftsman to god-like, cult of personality. After time, the new generations come to revere and respect the beliefs and myths that their elders held dear, thus creating a divine persona of 'the Builder'.
If the Builder is indeed a 'god', then it isn't an omnipotent one, as it is clearly imperfect and subject to fate, along with everything else in the Thief universe.
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:16
@ Dia
Imho, Karras wasn't just a narcissist, he was a raving mad megolomaniac who had a great deal of power and influence.
Well, his narcissism is what predisposed him to becoming a successful despot. Other notorious dictators throughout history have had very strong narcissistic personalities.
"Praise Karras...and the Builder"
:wot:
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:37
re: Mechanists
@ Petike
On the plus side, the Mechs created a lot of helpful technology to aid the people of the city, and are for equality between men and women in church terms as well... On the downside, they had zero empathy for living nature (severely polluting the enviroment, cleansing the country of greens, hunting burricks to the brink of extinction)
I believe they were one of the major factions in the Thief universe, but I didn't refer to them extensively because its my perception that they are now defunct. After the death of Karras and the destruction of his fortress, the Mechanist movement lost all credibility. If there are still Mechanists in the Thief universe (TDS doesn't allude to them at all, IIRC), then they are small pockets of fanatics spread throughout the world.
Good point about the positive things they accomplished (gender equality among their ranks).
In some ways, the Mechanists resemble laissez faire capitalism, were money and profiteering is the highest good. Except in this case, its industrial production. The environment is polluted, damaged and desecrated...resources are pillaged...all in the name of continued production and expansion.
Nature and organic life was viewed as unpredictable and corrupt, according to Karras. In his rigid mind, only his creations were subservient and therefore 'trustworthy'. He could always rely on the machine, not the corrupt mind of a living being which is subject to change. It is this distrust of others which fueled his narcissism, and permitted his hatred and resentments to manifest through his plans for a mechanist holocaust.
...and were utterly fanatical compared to the devout, but trustworthy Hammers.
Nah, I think the Hammers were much more fanatical than the Mechanists. At least in terms of the rigidity of rules and law...the uncompromising nature of Hammerite dogma, viewing alternative views as 'blasphemy'.
Note that the Mechanists did this as well to some extent, but splintered off (at least partly) because Hammerite philosophy was considered outdated, inflexible, and unwilling to adapt to modern times.
I always viewed Karras as a typical "missunderstood genius".
Yes, me too. The bullied child who in turn, unleashes his bottled resentments in a Columbine-style assault...except on the whole City. :wot:
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:38
@ herr_garrett
Anyway, I've always thought that the Mechanists were to be reckoned with not because of their numbers, but because of their knowledge and industry. So I guess - at least, that's what I surmise - the Hammers could have wiped them out easily, but for their technological disadvantage.
Another way to look at it is the Protestant reformation. The Mechs were Lutherans breaking off from the Catholic orthodoxy. :)
