Dia on 2/1/2009 at 20:43
@Overman
Yes; I acknowledged that Karras was a narcissist. My point was that I believed him to be (at the point at which we meet him in TMA) more of a raving lunatic than anything else.
As a 'new member' (regardless of your join date), perhaps you aren't aware that successive multiple posting in a thread is seriously frowned upon?
Just a friendly heads-up.
;)
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:56
@ jtr7
The City Watch of TMA, under Sheriff Truart, is a short-lived Faction.
IMO, the City Watch is just the law enforcement department of the City. Not necessarily a faction that influences the balance, but certainly the case when Truart was in power, as he corrupted it and manipulated others through it.
The Kurshok were no more a faction than the Rat Beasts, they just had a richer, stronger story.
True, but I see the rat beasts (or the cray men in earlier titles) as simply natural mutants that would probably be allied with the Pagans by default. Or even created by them through woodsie magiks. :)
I see the Kurshok as a primitive race...much like the so-called 'precursors'. Or were the Kushok the 'prescursors' that fell from grace, and were destroyed in a 'cataclysm' (most likely a volcanic eruption or earthquake)?
They did nothing to influence the balance either way.
Well, they did possess the crown and had a significant role with regards to the 'paw', which were some of the five 'sentients' needed to activate the final glyph. So I would assume they did influence the balance in some way. They were just introduced late in the trilogy.
If the Wardens and the Thieves' Guild hadn't been so casually undermined, they could've been a Faction, and they almost were.
Yes, I often wondered why the Downwinders weren't more powerful and influential in the City. Most medieval fantasy worlds are characterized by a strong, centralized thief or criminal guild. But seeing how Garrett almost single-handedly brought them down by himself in one mission, and the fact that they had no powerful leader...it seems to indicate that they were of little significance in the scope of the plot.
...though necromancy seems to be the one thing they are worried about, which also grieves the Hammers, but doesn't seem worry the Pagans too much--usually.
Well, I would presume that Necromancy would bother the Pagans the most, as they are the faction which values 'natural life' above all other things. Zombies are the anti-thesis of everything alive and growing. They are a perversion of the natural order. I'm surprised there wasn't more story concerning the Pagans battling the undead.
However, they do make references to the Gray Lady being an 'abomination' in TDS. An 'abomination' of nature to be sure.
My perception of the Gray Lady is that she was once a Keeper, hundreds of years ago, and that she became corrupt and valued knowledge for the sake of prolonging her life and power...as opposed to loving knowledge for the sake of knowledge, which seems to be the Keeper thesis.
:thumb:
Overman on 2/1/2009 at 20:58
@ Dia
perhaps you aren't aware that successive multiple posting in a thread is seriously frowned upon?
Uh, why? :confused:
I've been in dozens of internet forums, and this is the first one I've ever heard that in.
It's not like I'm trolling or spamming. I'm simply adding to a conversation that I find interesting. :erg:
Dia on 2/1/2009 at 21:35
From what I've read, people who multiple post are considered to be 'attention whores'. I think awhile ago one of the admins also explained something about multiple posting having an effect on the technical part of the forums, or something similar. It was advised that you 'Edit' your original post after you've already posted rather than make additional posts.
Or something like that.
All I know is that it's frowned upon in TTLG.
You could contact one of the moderators or admins if you need a more concise explanation.
jtr7 on 2/1/2009 at 23:32
The pagans were raising the undead, or being worked to death by the Hammers and becoming undead.:sly: And it's an old debate, started before TDS or even TMA, that the necromancy had pagan origins, but most disagree. In TDS they weren't against besetting their enemies with undead as they were building up to war. It has connections, though tenuous, to the fact that the Woodsie Lord is partly derived from the god of the underworld.
The reason you are given a choice to plant the Sapling, moss the Cornerstones, shoot elemental arrows into the Elemental Cocoon, and so, isn't just to make allies of the pagans, but because you are helping to increase the source of their magic so they can fight the Hammerites, and this includes aiding the Shaman to raise undead with the Necromancer's Wand.
The Gray Lady is the Keeper Gamall, and she's centuries old. She's been stealing skins ever since she became obsessed with the Glyph of Transmutation and the Invertamus Glyph (life-perpetuating). She and three other Keepers swore to keep the Glyph of Transmutation hidden and locked away (Chronicles of Daegar) way back when.
These are the "Faction Quotes" from the TDP?Gold manual:
[INDENT]"Dig your hands into the earth, and then let the clay and dirt fall to the ground. After a year's passing, can you find that clay again? But drop a stone block, a beam, a fired brick; it will persist a year, and another hundred years beside. --The Book of the Hammer"
"Vines will twine to drink out the life of the manfools, and where the bloods of trees is spilled the Leaf-man rises and topples the towers. His will makes the trees to grow again, his roots and branches thirsting and blood to drinks in the joy of open sky. --Unattributed Trickster Scroll"
"The world is a great scale, which must stay in balance, in the face of forces seeking to skew its arms. A collection of knowledge is a set of weights, to be added to one side of the scale or the other, as necessary. Our task to place the weights, slowly, carefully, over centuries, in order that the balance be preserved. --Excerpt from the Lectures of the Keeper Loremaster"
[/INDENT]
These are the "Faction Quotes" from the TMA manual:
[INDENT]"It is not a question about what the Law is, but rather what it is not. The Law is neither noble, nor an end in itself. It is not for the weak-minded or the squeamish. The Law is simply a means for those who control it, namely me, to acquire that which I want. One with your wealth and connections, who is prepared to sacrifice to have a troubling problem resolved, need only describe to me in detail the favor you are requesting. --Gorman Truart, correspondence"
"The Master Builder came unto us. He built for us a new house, and the house was like His house. And he gifted us with knowledge, and we learned to use Boiler and Gear. That unto us would come His Paradise, and there would be no pain. --from Mechanist Rote Texts for Novices"
"Twice moons face darks us showed
Twice thems jackals singsie
Thrice Him harvest failsy blights
Thrice we weeps and chillsing... --Unattributed, Ink on Parchment"
"Our focus shifted to those who presented two faces: one manifest yet false, the other hidden yet true. To interfere directly would bring ruin, still, the glyph warnings were absolute. --Keepers Annals"
[/INDENT]
Yes, the City Watch is not a faction, but in Truart's New Age, they are just as important as the Mechanists until Truart is assassinated. His influence on the balance is enormous, as is his corruption.
Say, do you have access to the (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1628561#post1628561) texts and conversation transcripts? Search for keywords in these and watch your brain explode:
(
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Resources)
kamyk on 3/1/2009 at 07:38
Quote Posted by Dia
As a 'new member' (regardless of your join date), perhaps you aren't aware that successive multiple posting in a thread is seriously frowned upon?
Just a friendly heads-up.
;)
Quote Posted by Dia
All I know is that it's frowned upon in TTLG.
She is correct. Personally I've never been in a forum where it
isn't frowned on. At the Atari forums, you get infractions for doing it.
Although here they don't seem to mind if you do it infrequently...
jtr7 on 3/1/2009 at 08:44
It helps to only do it when days have passed, or the thread needs bumping, or new important info is being added, or if you are making a firm distinction between posts. Plus, what kamyk said.:)
If someone has subscribed to the thread and chose the option to be instantly notified of new posts by e-mail, they will get an e-mail every time you post, so editing new info into the last post is preferable for that reason, too.
Anyway, where were we?:angel:
Jarvis on 3/1/2009 at 17:29
I remember a conversation I had with a friend many years ago. He described TDP as a story of a threat of "to much chaos". Chaos being the ultimate goal of the Trickster and the pagans. He said TMA was a story of a threat of "to much order". TDS wasn't out at the time, and I don't even think it was announced yet, or at least it was only barely announced. He predicted Thief 3 to be a story about "to much balance", in which the keepers were to be the villains. I agreed at the time.
My two cents on the folly of these factions:
The trickster represented chaos, or perhaps not. Perhaps you could say he represented the "order of nature" which is seen to be chaotic and random by many. Nature has laws and order though. In fact, nature is THE law with which we all live and die. I don't care what the Builder or the Hammers have to say about it, but nature will always overcome their works because man made structures are a deviation on the natural order of the world.
So in this way, the Trickster really represents the ultimate law and the ultimate order. What's more, he presents himself where as the Builder does not. To be a "god" or a "leader" by definition is to favor order of some kind. A true servant of chaos would be forced to decline any rule over anything. I argue that the Trickster knew nothing of chaos, nor was that his goal. He sought order just the same as the Hammers, only he sought a different sort of order.
The Hammers represent Order right? Of course. I can't punch a hole in that logic, other than to say that they were deluding themselves. The sang the praises of the Builder, but not once in the whole series does the Builder ever act. Nor is there proof of him ever acting. Every miracle they held as holy, or every disaster they blamed on the forces of evil, were all caused by the 5 artifacts. Or at least that seems to be the case.
So the Builder really is the opposite of the Trickster. The Builder either doesn't exist, or he's an anarchist. There's no denying that the Hammers and the Mechanists both are structured by the whims and trappings of men, NOT a god. The Builder has nothing to say about it. If he does indeed exist, then he's checked out to let his foolish followers dig themselves into deeper and deeper graves.
When you look at these factions in this way, doesn't it start to seem like the Pagans should be following the non-interventionist and anarchist Builder; and the Hammers should be more akin to worshiping a very open, direct, controlling, and blatant god such as the Trickster? Its politics that these factions are as they are, but politics aside they could very well switch Gods and end up with something closer to their ideals.
The Keepers? Balance? Ha! Even before TDS, Keepers were chasing a pipe dream. How can balance derive from an active organization of men? Sure, well balanced men could get together and be balanced together. They'd make a merry little commune. However, the moment they attempt guide others in the ways of balance they have "embraced a cause".
I won't get started on TDS Keepers here. I know they were supposed to have lost their balance in that one... but did they really need to lose all their intelligence and integri... never mind. I think some of you already know my feelings on TDS keepers...
So the question is: what is the ultimate balance? The ultimate law! Nature! As brutal and random and unfair as nature can be, it also provides everything you need. To embrace the natural world truly is to give up the need to take from others. There are still tribal people today who don't understand the concepts of theft and murder, because it doesn't happen in their tribe.
So the Keepers would have done well to more carefully examine the ambitions of the Pagans. Of course the Trickster knows nothing of balance, as I established, but after his death then perhaps the Pagans and the Keepers could find a lot of common ground. They could even invite the non-interventionist Builder too... though I doubt he'd show up.
Beleg Cúthalion on 3/1/2009 at 19:37
As soon as you have intelligence and/or dominance in nature your pretty balance is out of the way. Order (and thus Hammerites, if you want) appears to be the compromise to handle active powers (i.e. powers with consciousness).
Well, in simple terms... and just my first thought about it.
jtr7 on 4/1/2009 at 01:07
Don't forget, Jarvis, that the Hammerites can wield magic, and I don't believe the Lunar Pool, nor the merely pleasantly-surprised reaction to discovering its properties, can fall under anything the Artifacts have done, or even a miracle, but whatever simple magic it is that they call "the Builder's Blessing" seems to be quite enough for their beliefs. The fact that they cannot explain those things, yet can work with it, and wield it at will, is all they need, especially if there's no known pagan counterpart. Of course, they would find the Chalice's choice to kill the non-devoted upon request to be a sign of the Builder's hand.
Otherwise...:thumb:
