Jarvis on 4/1/2009 at 03:19

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Well if you want to go ahead use that as verification of his existence, then he still stands as a non-interventionist. I had forgotten about the lunar pool. I'd argue that it's akin to what the Hand Brotherhood do, as you suggest. After all, they don't seem to view the moon as a holy symbol, as it only gets mentioned in that one mission.

You're right though. Nothing to do with the artifacts.

Jarvis on 4/1/2009 at 07:06

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I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but I'll take a stab at it. I think you're saying that a self aware and intelligent being that expresses some dominance over nature has lost balance BY nature, and must then use Order to create the best equilibrium they can.

My thoughts in the subject: The human mind favors order, because rational thought would be impossible otherwise. I would argue that the minds of all creatures function in this way. Chaos represents the unknown, and despite the statistics I believe that the "unknown" is truly man's greatest fear. So by default, we seek order even in its simplest form.

On a societal level though, order has been the bane of man. It's hard to see it that way, because it's easy to image a world of constant killing and no scientific advancement in the absence of Order, but remember: the mind favors order by default. When a band gets together and kills people and steals their stuff, it's in the name of ORDER, not in the name of chaos. They want to gain the resources, or spread fear, or quell their enemies.

Maybe you could argue that a truly insane person might act specifically for chaos, but always remember that destruction is a form of creation. To tear something down is to create something in its absence. The rebel who fights a government seeks to replace it with something. A band that murders another band is seeking to establish something. Even if a psychopath believes they act solely for chaos, they are actually trying to establish a world that works by their rules; ie: their "order".

When I think like this, it makes the notion of chaos seem unachievable. No matter what I do, I'm creating some kind of order because that's how my mind functions. Therefore, in order to achieve balance I *must* accept some level of chaos. I must allow myself to break down preconceived notions, beliefs, ambitions, whatever; just to remind myself that I'm working towards something whether I know it or not.

So to return to your original point, I think you're right, but I disagree that anyone has dominance over nature. To believe so is foolish. I also disagree that order is the only compromise against chaos. On the contrary, I believe chaos is the only compromise against order.

Herr_Garrett on 4/1/2009 at 14:28

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So, in context of the Thief-universe, this is precisely what the Keepers achieved: the Glyphs being largely unpredictable, and their exact functions unknown, they represent - to my mind - the Chaos element in the Keeper's, for want of a better word, order. And they are an Order, after all... You could see that their "dissolution" was brought about by their usage of Chaos overmuch - thus falling into Chaos. Yes, as individuals they still acted by some sort of Order, but as an organization, they could not.

I concur that the Builder must exist - otherwise why should the Trickster wage battle on him and his minions? The Hammers' legends, I feel, are not without basis - consider the Haunted Cathedral: even decades later after its abandoning, some sort of power was at work, resisting the Eye. Why would Murus have been exceptional in his willpower? He seems to be rather a goofy person. Instead, I would say that he was bound by his vows to the Builder, and that lent him some sort of resilience. Also, the Consecration Prayer and the Prayer of The Wallbuilder work, and that, too, implies that there's some sort of deity who grants wishes, prayers, etc. Clearly, he's not the intervening type of god... But maybe the Thief-universe is a deist one. If the Builder had constructed the universe, and it's running smoothly precisely as planned, why should he intervene? The Builder's plans could be just as ineffable as Jahveh's, or God's, or Allah's are.
Actually, even the Pagans admit the existence of the Builder, if I am not mistaken. Moreover, some people have expounded here upon the idea that Constantine, viz. the Trickster and Viktoria are not dead - for they are bound by worship, woads, etc., and that only their bodily forms were, as it were, destroyed. Now, I agree with that, too - and that idicates that the Thief universe is a mythopoeic one. Thus, the Builder exists, just as well as the Trickster.

Overman on 7/1/2009 at 04:36

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@ Jarvis
He described TDP as a story of a threat of "to much chaos". Chaos being the ultimate goal of the Trickster and the pagans. He said TMA was a story of a threat of "to much order"...Thief 3 to be a story about "to much balance", in which the keepers were to be the villains.

Yes, thats pretty much my perception of the story. The Keepers, acting through Garrett, fight the extremists from both sides in the first two titles, but fall victim to their own (inherent) flaws in TDS.


The trickster represented chaos, or perhaps not. Perhaps you could say he represented the "order of nature" which is seen to be chaotic and random by many.

Relative to the discipline, structure, and idealized behavior (morality) of the Hammers...yes. The Hammers probably view the natural world with fear...as it symbolizes randomness and coincidence.

To say that the Trickster represented chaos is simply a metaphorical expression designed to shed on light on the deeper conflicts between what the Pagans were holding on to, and what the Hammers were trying to deny, rebuke, and move past.

The Hammers hated the 'chaos' and randomness they saw as being inherent in nature...and as all modern religions have striven to do, they seek to create order out of nothingness, civilization from barbarism, morality from depravity, etc.


Nature has laws and order though. In fact, nature is THE law with which we all live and die. I don't care what the Builder or the Hammers have to say about it, but nature will always overcome their works because man made structures are a deviation on the natural order of the world.

I agree, and IMO, the Hammers (much like some modern religions) persist in denying this reality. They believe that the earth and the natural world are below them...there to be used and abused if needed.

One could argue that the Hammers were prideful and arrogant...using their abilities to produce machines and structures to implicitly thwart the power of nature and deny that they were subject to it.


To be a "god" or a "leader" by definition is to favor order of some kind. A true servant of chaos would be forced to decline any rule over anything.

Not necessarily. The chaotic individual may take on a leadership role, only to create discord and confusion...basking in the glory of their 'creativity'. :sly:

But I agree that the Pagans seemed to have a leadership vacuum long after the Trickster departed. Vague leadership and fluid organization could may as well be the 'chaotic' nature of the Pagans.

Echoes my thoughts on modern American conservativism. Ol' Ronny Reagan badmouthed government as being the most inept, problematic feature of American society...yet he won enough votes to be the guy running it all. "I don't trust government, so put your trust in me to run it" :tsktsk:


I argue that the Trickster knew nothing of chaos, nor was that his goal. He sought order just the same as the Hammers, only he sought a different sort of order.

I agree with that, however, keep in mind that the Trickster is presented from the very beginning as a malignant character...defined almost entirely through the Hammer (or non-Pagan) perspective. This theme remains throughout the series. We never really get the Pagan view of the 'good' trickster, IMO.


...they sang the praises of the Builder, but not once in the whole series does the Builder ever act. Nor is there proof of him ever acting.

Excellent point. The Builder is more myth and legend than actual participant.

And you are correct to point out that the Hammers made great use of deus ex machina when the opportunity presented itself. I seem to recall them praising the Builder for their chalice returning, when we all know who was responsible for that.


When you look at these factions in this way, doesn't it start to seem like the Pagans should be following the non-interventionist and anarchist Builder; and the Hammers should be more akin to worshiping a very open, direct, controlling, and blatant god such as the Trickster?

Not following you there.

IMO, the Trickster seeks to spread the power of nature and its magic in order to battle the tech and industry which the Hammers have championed. While the Trickster may value the ultimate law of nature (and order in this sense), his adherents live on the outskirts of civilization and probably only respect the 'laws' of their communes. The trickster may be a very direct/controlling type...but who could really ever know his genuine intentions...especially if he is a creature of chaos, discord, and intentional deception?

The Builder is an aloof and detached idea. Precisely what comforts the Hammerite mind. A fantasy figure that will save them from the horrors of the natural world.


The Keepers? Balance? Ha! Even before TDS, Keepers were chasing a pipe dream. How can balance derive from an active organization of men?

The 'balance' was referring to keeping both of the major factions (hammer/pagan) from growing too strong. If the balance were to be disrupted or tilted in one's favor, then Keeper lore/faction philosophy implied that destruction and calamity would take place.


So the question is: what is the ultimate balance? The ultimate law! Nature! As brutal and random and unfair as nature can be, it also provides everything you need. To embrace the natural world truly is to give up the need to take from others.

Not necessarily. I can embrace the natural world, then murder and steal from my neighbors and claim innocence. 'Hey, its just natural selection. I am stronger and more keen than my neighbors, so I killed them and took their stuff for myself'. :wot:


There are still tribal people today who don't understand the concepts of theft and murder, because it doesn't happen in their tribe.

There is a difference between inter- and intra-tribal social relations.

Tribes eventually come into contact with others. And as history shows, butchery, slavery, and genocide typically take place.

Good post. :thumb:

Overman on 7/1/2009 at 05:16

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@ jtr7
Yeah, it's not so much a verification of the Builder's existence as an indication that something (the Hammerites' subconscious will, perhaps) keeps creating magical mystery events and objects that are perfectly aligned to the Hammer outlook; things that they aren't consciously creating, but are surprised to find out, and they just go with it from that day forward.

Most psychologists would refer to that as 'magical thinking', wish fulfillment, or delusions of grandeur.

David Hume would have a field day with this stuff.


@ herr garrett
I concur that the Builder must exist - otherwise why should the Trickster wage battle on him and his minions?

Waging war on other factions could be more of an issue of the values each stands for, not necessarily the deity being worshipped/fought for.


The Hammers' legends...consider the Haunted Cathedral...Murus...I would say that he was bound by his vows to the Builder, and that lent him some sort of resilience...Also, the Consecration Prayer and the Prayer of The Wallbuilder work, and that, too, implies that there's some sort of deity who grants wishes, prayers, etc. Clearly, he's not the intervening type of god...

Well, all those things can be explained away with the natural magic which exists in the Thief universe. None of the above (magic power of the cathedral, fetch-quest ghosts, or silly rituals) give credibility to the fact that the Builder allegedly exists.

Good point about the Builder's plan. Perhaps the Trickster is just the satanic symbol and anti-thesis of this Plan...and attempts to alter it through worldly intervention (TDP).

But again, I think this is a Hammer perspective. Hostility to nature and natural order. One may just as reasonably complain that the weeds in the garden corrupt the agricultural practices of men.

By believing that the Builder has a divine plan set in place, and that 'fate' and destiny are the rule, the Hammers sufficiently shield their egos from the certainty of natural death, the cycle of birth/rebirth, and the inherent randomness and circumstantiality of life. They seek to deny the chaos of the natural world by armoring themselves in strict discipline and a dogmatic philosophy of 'order'.


Actually, even the Pagans admit the existence of the Builder, if I am not mistaken.

Well, as the old saying goes 'your god may not look or sound like my god, but I bet they are friends'. All western religions worship the same 'god'...they just call it different names.

Consider this: the Builder and the Trickster are the same entity. :wot:

The human beings in the Thief universe simply interpret their social realities differently (valuing nature and a green style of living vs technocracy, industrialization), thus giving character to their shared perception of the one higher power.

Some see 'god' as the Builder, others as the 'Trickster'...depending on their social reality. :)