Three factions; analysis

Bulgarian_Taffer on 4/5/2009 at 18:53

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

So? You can hate me! :cheeky: Anyway, this is for PMs.

My favourite faction be the Order of the Hammer. If they existed, I'd join them immediately.

There are a lot of sects all over the world and most are as cruel as the Hammerites...

You can join them whenever you want :D:D

Herr_Garrett on 4/5/2009 at 18:57

Quote Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer

There are a lot of sects all over the world and most are as cruel as the Hammerites...

You can join them whenever you want :D:D

The Hammers, you know, are not cruel. No more than they need be, and you can't blame them for that. You could just as well randomly point out any power-group and say they are cruel. Power requires control, control requires full knowledge of information, and that sometimes requires torture.
By the way, if you check the list of the "inmates" at Cragscleft, you will find no innocents among them.

Stath MIA on 5/5/2009 at 03:02

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

By the way, if you check the list of the "inmates" at Cragscleft, you will find no innocents among them.

Except maybe, whatshisname the heretic, but he wasn't given all that bad of treatment, just meditation, if I remember correctly, but he was locked up just for disagreeing with them.

But even so, I'd have to say I've got the most respect for the Hammerites, they maintain order and punish injustice. The Pagans seem nice in T2-3 but you have to keep in mind that they, or rather their god, tried to wipe the City from the world. The Mechs only good qualities are those they share with the Hammers, other than that they just massacre those they dislike. As for the Keepers, their motives may be good but they just seem to fail at doing anything other than giving Garrett advice, their Enforcers slaughter several dozen people for no go good reason and they opted to not use the Final Glyph, preferring to let the Hag (also a Keeper) to take out much of the City than to give up their powers thereby proving their commitment to maintaining the Balance false.

jtr7 on 5/5/2009 at 03:14

Father Wills, Hammer Priest, Heretic, "sentenced" to Factory Work and meditation.
Dikket, Heretic, previously held in Cragscleft, given sour mash. Released upon Recantation and Informing. Gave Garrett a tip on location of Cutty.

Stath MIA on 5/5/2009 at 03:16

Exactly the same:thumb:!

Jah on 5/5/2009 at 07:12

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

By the way, if you check the list of the "inmates" at Cragscleft, you will find no innocents among them.

We don't know whether the inmates (apart from Cutty) were guilty or not. The prison log only tells us what crimes they were convicted of, not whether they received a fair trial, or any kind of trial at all. For all we know, the Hammers could have simply "decided" that such-and-such is a thief/heretic/prostitute/whatever and tossed them in a cell.

Herr_Garrett on 5/5/2009 at 08:43

Quote Posted by Jah

If you can think that of the Hammers, then it's very sad. The Hammers are respected, held in awe and a little feared in the City. The Hammers apparently have a strong sense of justice - they aren't chums of the nobility (the discussion between the to nobles in Auldale), but are open to anyone, including the lowest and poorest (Drept), and bring justice to all alike (their own priest, thieves, etc.). The Hammerites were based on the Templars, and the Templars, you know, did the same. The Hammers' tenets as well were based on the codes and laws of chivalry, that is evident. They don't just loaf around trying to catch people looking at them in a funny way and then chucking them into prisons, to my mind.
Moreover, there is no such information that the Hammers lent strength to the Baron in the war. That, again, methinks shows that they are not interested in power itself, but rather the uses of power for the greater good of all.

Jah on 5/5/2009 at 09:14

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

If you can think that of the Hammers, then it's very sad.

Why is it sad?

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

The Hammers are respected, held in awe and a little feared in the City. The Hammers apparently have a strong sense of justice

We know the Hammers have torture chambers in their facilities, which suggests to me that much like the Inquisition, they're no strangers to using torture to extract confessions. No doubt the Hammers themselves believe they are acting in the interests of justice, but I'm not convinced their way of dealing with alleged criminals has much to do with what I would call "justice" in the modern sense.

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

Moreover, there is no such information that the Hammers lent strength to the Baron in the war. That, again, methinks shows that they are not interested in power itself, but rather the uses of power for the greater good of all.

Maybe. Or maybe they didn't lend strength to the Baron, because it wasn't in their own interests to do so.

You're obviously free to interpret the Hammers, their actions and motives any way you like, but the actual information about them given in the game doesn't make them look unambiguously altruistic and can also be interpreted differently.

Herr_Garrett on 5/5/2009 at 09:26

Quote Posted by Jah

True. But obviously the Baron and the Watch are unable to run the City. It is most likely the Hammers who do. And to run a City, a state, or any sort of organisation 'tis unaviodable to use force and torture sometimes. Not necessarily physical, but mental.

My point is that one cannot blame the Hammerites for using torture implements and other toys when it is basically they who run the City. I'm not saying that they are wholly altruistic; actually, as a religion they cannot be, because a religion's interest is its own survival: but through their strife with the "forces of chaos" and spreading their faith they do good. And that is a rare thing in the City. The Pagans want to eliminate the City; Karras too, only by other means. The Keepers would be ready to do anything in the name of the Sacred Balance gibberish, and the Watch is just a bunch of drunken petty criminals.

Jah on 5/5/2009 at 09:45

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

True. But obviously the Baron and the Watch are unable to run the City. It is most likely the Hammers who do.

Within the time frame of the Thief games, perhaps, but the games take place under special circumstances when the City is in turmoil. We don't really know how things work in the City when the Baron isn't off fighting a war and has more control over everyday affairs, or how the City Watch works when a corrupt official like Truart doesn't have a free reign. I'm guessing that much like in real life in the Middle Ages, there is fluctuation of power between religious and secular authorities. Sometimes there are strong rulers (Barons) who can make the church (the Hammers) submit to their authority, sometimes the church has so much influence over the ruler that he becomes little more than their puppet.

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

And to run a City, a state, or any sort of organisation 'tis unaviodable to use force and torture sometimes. Not necessarily physical, but mental.

My point is that one cannot blame the Hammerites for using torture implements and other toys when it is basically they who run the City.

I hope you're being cynical there. Those who run a City, state or organization can use force and torture, because there's no one to stop them, but it doesn't mean it's morally justifiable.