Discendo Vox on 19/9/2024 at 23:21
Quote Posted by Starker
Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
There's a reason it's considered an informal fallacy. You're requiring an unrealistic standard of evidence, and no alternative causal explanation for a significant and plausible causal sequence.
Quote Posted by SD
Wasn't the Lancet the first mainstream publication to give credence to MMR autism conspiracies?
Not exactly- Lancet made the catastrophically stupid decision to publish Wakefield's fraudulent autism study ((
https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(97)11096-0.pdf)), but wasn't the first source for the broader false claim about autism and vaccines. Lancet does, compared with other similarly positioned medical journals, have a worse reputation for headline chasing with out-of-scope and overbroad publications, but in reality this is a widespread problem with current scholarly publishing practices. It probably justifies skepticism about the specific report, but total rejection really requires engagement with the report itself, not just the outlet. They're still one of the giant, well-regarded generalist medical journals, and they've still got levels of editorial scrutiny better than the ones you've not heard of.
Starker on 20/9/2024 at 01:36
Quote Posted by Discendo Vox
There's a reason it's considered an informal fallacy. You're requiring an unrealistic standard of evidence, and no alternative causal explanation for a significant and plausible causal sequence.
I don't think a causal link is an unreasonable standard of evidence in this case. And I don't think the theory that Lord Dampnut is to blame for these deaths is very plausible in the first place.
For one, given how self-centered Lord Dampnut is, he would hardly be interested in digging up this information in the first place, because he only really cares about himself and things that benefit him and his business.
Also, this is very specific information that would require memorization of details. Reportedly, Lord Dampnut did his best to resist his daily briefs to the point intelligence officials had to come up all kinds of novel ways of presentation and simplification just for being able to hold his attention span and even then it was a real struggle. Being able to hold and wield this information in a way to kill US assets would simply be outside of his capacity.
As for Wakefield, there's an excellent video on this very topic, about how he faked data in his study and lied:
[video=youtube;8BIcAZxFfrc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BIcAZxFfrc[/video]
DuatDweller on 21/9/2024 at 04:34
Stipendium peccati mors est.
Sorry, have been playing FNV mods again.
Discendo Vox on 21/9/2024 at 06:29
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't think a causal link is an unreasonable standard of evidence in this case. And I don't think the theory that Lord Dampnut is to blame for these deaths is very plausible in the first place.
For one, given how self-centered Lord Dampnut is, he would hardly be interested in digging up this information in the first place, because he only really cares about himself and things that benefit him and his business.
Also, this is very specific information that would require memorization of details. Reportedly, Lord Dampnut did his best to resist his daily briefs to the point intelligence officials had to come up all kinds of novel ways of presentation and simplification just for being able to hold his attention span and even then it was a real struggle. Being able to hold and wield this information in a way to kill US assets would simply be outside of his capacity.
It does not. A big part of the subsequent Trump documents case was that he retained the classified documents themselves at a private residence and publicly rented space frequented by individuals with ties to foreign governments. No memorization.
More broadly, the entire idea of causal reasoning relies upon the comparative likelihood of events occurring in sequence. That's literally how causal reasoning works, and it's all that is possible under the many, many circumstances where counterfactuals can't be tested, including this one.
Quote Posted by Starker
As for Wakefield, there's an excellent video on this very topic, about how he faked data in his study and lied:
[video=youtube;8BIcAZxFfrc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BIcAZxFfrc[/video]
I'm familiar with the video and am deeply familiar with the harms of the antivaccine movement in general; I literally cited the underlying study and referred to it as fraudulent. My statement about burden of proof was relating to the documented significant uptick in deaths in foreign intelligence assets during and after Trump's term.
Starker on 21/9/2024 at 12:40
The documents Lord Dampnut squirreled away to his "Southern White House" had to do with things like military capabilities and the affairs of the leaders of foreign nations. To the best of our knowledge, there was no information about asset recruitment. Also, assets have been lost in different countries and the documents only left the White house after Lord Dampnut got the boot while the increase of asset loss happened already before it.
And as far as causal links go, there are also explanations for the increase in the very article you cite:
Quote:
[...]
Acknowledging that recruiting spies is a high-risk business, the cable raised issues that have plagued the agency in recent years, including poor tradecraft; being too trusting of sources; underestimating foreign intelligence agencies, and moving too quickly to recruit informants while not paying enough attention to potential counterintelligence risks — a problem the cable called placing “mission over security.”
The large number of compromised informants in recent years also demonstrated the growing prowess of other countries in employing innovations like biometric scans, facial recognition, artificial intelligence and hacking tools to track the movements of C.I.A. officers in order to discover their sources.
[...]
Nicker on 21/9/2024 at 20:09
It's not just about the documents he stole and illegally retained and lied about having at Mar a Largo, it's about his unmonitored meeting with Putin, it's about him inviting the enemy into the oval office, it's about him publicly soliciting the assistance of Russia in 2016, it's about his private, unmonitored cell phone with which he dispensed who know how many national secrets.
I don't want to quibble over whether it was a few hundred thousand unnecessary COVID deaths, or a half million, give or take a few tens of thousands, and let's leave aside the question of possible covert damage tRump has done to the USA's diplomatic and intelligence communities, let's just look at the clear and present danger he represents to Americans today.
I am not talking about the fact that, despite being told repeatedly that Haitians are not eating pets, Vance and tRump continue to attack people from "Haitia" (sic) and promoting threats against Americans and legal immigrants alike. Bomb threats, cops patrolling schools, Proud Boy militias roaming the streets.
I am talking about this...
TRUMP: If I lose, blame the Jews!
[video=youtube;7mDKRggaF-k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mDKRggaF-k[/video]
What could go wrong?
Starker on 22/9/2024 at 04:33
I just don't think there is any point in making up numbers when it's just wild conjecture. If there's very little to back it up, it just veers into the "millions of illegal immigrants are voting illegally" territory. There is no point in claiming millions of deaths when there's probably "just" tens of thousand of deaths that can be attributed to the incompetence.
That Forbes article, for example, makes it clear that it's not that the unavoidable deaths just suddenly grew to 461k by 2018, but that they grew to that from about 420k unavoidable deaths under Obama. Policy isn't something that just kills hundreds of thousands of people overnight -- it's decades of failed policy at play here starting from Reagan when the Republicans began to dismantle the New Deal and the civil rights era advances in addressing inequality.
Also, can I just point out that COVID-19 wasn't a thing in 2018. So you can't really claim any COVID deaths before the virus had begun to spread.
Nicker on 22/9/2024 at 04:57
Ok. How about, more than ten times as many people died as a direct result of tRump's incompetent handling of COVID than were killed by enemies of the USA on 9/11?
Now let's all just chill to some dope rhymes.
[video=youtube;YJw915Ih22U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJw915Ih22U[/video]
Tocky on 22/9/2024 at 15:35
Oh well, in a very short time democracy will be gone. It will be gone "poof like magic, you will see". Do you really think his fanatics haven't been plotting to take over polling places? Through threats and intimidation they have been pushing out officials who have been there decades. Under the guise of illegals voting they will stop citizens from voting for Harris and have a plan to bring in fake ballots to swing states. Remember that the lies they claim about others are the lies they will make true for themselves.
Not even Kiffness will be allowed to remain in a take our country back mania.
I hope that is just a fear but it is based on what they have been inching toward.
Oh wait. You said chill.
DuatDweller on 22/9/2024 at 17:55
I was reading on BBC News, that two persons, one who loves him and one who hates him, said he staged all the assassination attempts.
(
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvglm0rjy2go)
Quote:
'I hate Trump, she likes him - we both think he staged assassination attempts'
Wild Mother - the online alias of a woman called Desirée - lives in the mountains of Colorado, where she posts videos to 80,000 followers about holistic wellness and bringing up her little girl. She wants Donald Trump to win the presidential election.
About 70 miles north in the suburbs of Denver is Camille, a passionate supporter of racial and gender equality who lives with a gaggle of rescue dogs and has voted Democrat for the past 15 years.
The two women are poles apart politically - but they both believe assassination attempts against Mr Trump were staged.
Their views on the shooting in July and the apparent foiled plot earlier this month were shaped by different social media posts pushed to their feeds, they both say.
I travelled to Colorado - which became a hotbed of conspiracy theories about the 2020 election being stolen - for the BBC Radio 4 podcast Why Do You Hate Me? USA. I wanted to understand why these evidence-free staged assassination theories seemed to have spread so far across the political spectrum and the consequences for people like Camille and Wild Mother.
Dozens of evidence-free posts I found suggesting both incidents were staged have racked up more than 30 million views on X. Some of these posts came from anti-Trump accounts that did not seem to have a track record of sharing theories like this, while a smaller share were posted by some of the former president’s supporters.
For Democrat Camille, Trump’s team orchestrated this to boost his chances of winning the election.
Wild Mother - who already follows QAnon, the unfounded conspiracy theory which claims Donald Trump is involved in a secret war against an elite cabal of Satan-worshipping paedophiles - wants to believe Trump’s own team staged the attack in order to frame his supposed enemies in the "Deep State".
The Deep State is claimed to be a shadowy coalition of security and intelligence services looking to thwart certain politicians.
There is no evidence to support either of the women’s theories.
The idea that news events have been staged to manipulate the public is a classic trope in the conspiracy theory playbook. Wild Mother says she is no stranger to this alternative way of thinking.
Camille, however, says this is the first time she has ever used the word "staged" about an event in the news like this. She always believed Covid-19 was real and she was extremely opposed to false claims the 2020 election had been rigged.
But on 13 July this year, when she was sitting in front of her TV at home watching live as Donald Trump was shot at a campaign rally in Pennsylvania, she says she immediately thought: "Oh, that's staged."
The way Donald Trump was able to pose for a photo and raise his fist in the air was what ignited Camille’s suspicions.
She had questions about how the US Secret Service allowed the shooting to happen in the first place. The director of the service has since resigned over failings that day.
The shooter was a 20-year-old called Thomas Matthew Crooks, who was killed by Secret Service snipers. His motives remain unknown – which left many questions wide open. And so Camille’s thoughts continued to spiral.
Already sceptical that something did not add up, Camille turned to X for more answers. In the years before the shooting, she had already started spending more and more time on the social media site, formerly known as Twitter. She had taken an interest in pro-Democrat anti-Trump accounts and followed some of them.
"I would admit to you that I spend too much time on social media now, and it, in my mind, is kind of a problem," she tells me.
Recent changes to how X’s "For You" feed works meant she started seeing more posts from accounts she does not follow, but that pushed ideas in line with her political views. Lots of these accounts had also purchased blue ticks on the site, which give their posts more prominence.
So when the first assassination attempt happened, unfounded conspiracy theories suggesting it had been staged were not only recommended directly to her feed - but were all the more convincing as they came from other profiles with the same political views she holds about Donald Trump.
Most of the social media companies say they have guidelines to protect users and reduce harmful content. X did not respond to the BBC's request for comment.