Mortal Monkey on 29/7/2008 at 08:34
Quote Posted by dethtoll
First of all, why all the complaints about there being too many games set in World War 2 when there are hundreds if not thousands of games taking place in some generic space or fantasy setting?
Gee, I dunno. Could it have something to do with WW2 being set on Earth (or rather, in Germany or the US, apparantly Japan doesn't exist) somewhere between 1931 and 1951 (and that's being generous), where as "generic space setting" could be in any universe at any point it time, and "generic fantasy setting" applies to every game that isn't meant to be realistic?
Malleus on 29/7/2008 at 10:15
Quote Posted by BR796164
All those technical points are completely valid, however, looking at whole picture of both games, artistically taken SC is disposable schlock in comparison with Thief.
Unfortunately yes, but you said "early SCs are weak stealths", and I replied to that - the 'stealth' part.
Anyway, while gameplay and level design did improve in Chaos Theory, I think the writing definitely didn't (and I don't even mention that fourth one, IMO that's a new low in everything).
Hesche on 29/7/2008 at 11:03
I think the big appeal of a WW2 setting for today´s gamers comes with its drama, location, combatants, mythology and "justification".
No other war has claimed so many lives making it the most dramatic and tragic event for a game setting.
It was the last big war on Western-European soil, a landscape we all have a connection to or are familiar with. Some of us live there, visited battlegrounds, seen remains. Hell, there´s still a air raid shelter sign in the basement under my flat.
It was the last "just" war (if you look at it from the winning side). With all the bestialities commited by the enemy revealed later on, WW2 was a true fight against the forces of evil (if you wanna see it kind of unidimensional).
It was a war against a peer enemy who possessed equal military standards, even sometimes superior equipment leading to classic battle situations we know from strategy games, which in turn leads to a false conviction that there was no collateral damage only gallant man to man combat.
I think WW2 is one of the best analyzed wars in history. With all the documentaries about battles, political backgrounds and other stuff I have the impression to know everything there is to know about the nanny of the secret stepsister of Hitlers backup bodyguard.
A lot of mysticism surrounds the Third Reich with all these secret weapons developed in secret bunkers, secret Nazi gold (which apparently will be a "real world" feature of Velvet Assassin as in-game clues will give hints to locations of real world buried "Nazi gold"), huge stagings with torches and so on. The Indiana Jones movies rely on this mysticism.
A long enough time has passed to treat this tragedy in a game environment while it´s still fresh enough to touch our daily lifes.
My impression is the invasion in Normandy is THE central motiv of WW2 treatments, be it in movies, documentaries or games. If you think WW2 you think invasion, paratroopers, baucage, Normandy. That combination of logistic masterpiece, planning, massive military force, sacrifice, clash of infantry troops, tragedy of forseeable yet inescapable events makes for a great game environment.
Rogue Keeper on 29/7/2008 at 11:13
Quote Posted by Malleus
Unfortunately yes, but you said "early SCs are weak stealths", and I replied to that - the 'stealth' part.
My bad. I should have written they're weak games in general (in comparison with Thieves certainly). :ebil:
SubJeff on 29/7/2008 at 11:20
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
where as "generic space setting" could be in any universe at any point it time, and "generic fantasy setting" applies to every game that isn't meant to be realistic?
I wish you were right. You're not.
It's totally the dev's fault's but space settings always have the same stuff. Lasers, aliens (whoa! some look almost human. the evil
looking ones are usually
eeeevil), hyperdrive, blah blah blah.
Fantasy games - dethtoll is talking about swords and sorcery I think, and all of these have the same old things. Elves? Check. Magic? Check. Magic ARMOUR? Check.
At least WW2 was real and therefore has some restrictions (unless you are doing a weird revision). Space and fantasy games don't have to have the same old restrictions and yet they aaaaall have the same old stuff. See, Dune (the novel) was interesting because it was different. There is a new space RTS coming out called StarCraft 2. Lasers? Check. Aliens? Check. Glowing bits? Checkchekchchhcclhekcehefkkikekekekekeke
Mortal Monkey on 29/7/2008 at 15:42
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Fantasy games - dethtoll is talking about swords and sorcery I think, and all of these have the same old things. Elves? Check. Magic? Check. Magic ARMOUR? Check.
Thief had swords and sorcery. Elves? None. Magic? I'd like to see a game that has sorcery without magic. Magic ARMOUR? Nope.
You do have a point though, and that is perhaps the main reason I don't play RPGs.
Rogue Keeper on 29/7/2008 at 15:43
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
Magic ARMOUR? Nope.
Magic sword nonetheless. ;)
Ostriig on 29/7/2008 at 16:03
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
It's totally the dev's fault's [...]
At least WW2 was real and therefore has some restrictions (unless you are doing a weird revision). Space and fantasy games don't have to have the same old restrictions and yet they aaaaall have the same old stuff.
Totally agreed, but the emphasis is on it being the developers' fault. And if we're to talk about setting potential, rather than developer competency, I think the WW2 theme's restrictions work against it in the long run. When you're creating a new world, at least you have the
option of showing players some new stuff, unlike when you're going over Normandy once again. Personally, looking at Mirror's Edge with its somewhat futuristic setting, I find myself intrigued as to what the devs may throw at me - even though it is a world inspired by modern day reality, it's not supposed to accurately mimic our actual reality. It's intended to be different.
SubJeff on 29/7/2008 at 16:16
I want to see a WW2 game set in occupied Europe with a massive open world where you are part of the resistance and a saboteur. Hitman on a massive scale if you like, holding down a day job, having to hide equipment, making secret communications with your allies, gathering intel and finally making a strike. Picturesque countryside too. With the occasional Dalek Panzer to keep you on your toes.
june gloom on 29/7/2008 at 16:36
Quote Posted by Hesche
With all the bestialities commited by the enemy revealed later on
I don't think that's the right use of that word ;)
Someone mentioned that you never fight the Japanese in WW2 games, and that's a valid point- but Call of Duty 5 seems to be going in that direction.
I don't really know why more WW2 games feature the Pacific war. I think a lot of it may have to do with the technology being unable to render a jungle convincingly, though obviously that's not true nowadays.
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
Thief had swords and sorcery. Elves? None. Magic? I'd like to see a game that has sorcery without magic. Magic ARMOUR? Nope.
Thief isn't straight up fantasy, however. Nobody is going to confuse it with Lord of the Goddamn Rings.
