Video: Thief vs. Deus Ex -- a design discussion - by Starker
Hewer on 24/5/2013 at 21:50
Thanks for the link
Warren Spector just doesn't get Thief. He doesn't like it and needs to keep his grubby hands out of it. He wants it to be something it's not and is trying to fix what isn't broken.
On the other hand, Doug Church is rad. He understands what makes Thief fun.
That's just my thoughts having watched the video. I know there's been discussion on this topic before (that I haven't followed very well), and I may not be adding anything new, but there you go.
Al_B on 24/5/2013 at 22:03
For me the highlight was the difference between the two game's approaches to developing the player. Giving someone else the opportunity to play with your game character from the end of Deus Ex would likely be an easy win because the game character would be upgraded. Giving someone Garrett from the end of Thief would make pretty much no difference to how they got on with the game because they kept the skill to the player and didn't artificially raise it though game mechanics. Of course, things got harder later in the game(s) but it was about learning how to apply the same basic skills in more advanced situations.
jtr7 on 24/5/2013 at 23:05
Thief levels the player up, and like Warren, they might not even notice until they go play another game, or replay Thief and it's noticeably easier each time around, and not just because maps are familiar or memorized.
I'm glad his frustrations led to Deus Ex, but that's where I part ways with him. He left LGS too soon before the devs figured out what they had with The Dark Project, so I shouldn't be surprised no one found a way to tell him how wrong his approach to Thief was as a player, 'cause half the time I didn't know what he was going on about.
Vae on 25/5/2013 at 01:40
Yes..."Player skill" is leveraged by design, in a variety of ways, and is paramount in preserving the much beloved tension...encouraging the player to apply their creative intelligence in ways which are otherwise substituted by the reliance on "character skill"...This is one of the hallmarks of THIEF, and progressive "character skill" has no place in its' core design...yet, I fear this critical fundamental may be lost or diminished with the misguided conception of NuThief.
Hewer on 25/5/2013 at 02:25
In thinking about it- I remember after I got heavily into playing Thief I just couldn't play much else. I tried Quake Arena with some friends and just got my butt handed to me because I kept trying to hide out and ambush everybody. I haven't been able to play first person shooters since.
Watching that video, I kept thinking that WS wants to make games that console fanboi types like to play- they like having their hand held, big power ups and causing a lot of digital mayhem. That's fine for them, but the part of it that I really don't get is their idea of "beating" a game and moving on to something else. I got TDP not long after it came out, and only "finished" it the week before TMA came out because I wanted to have the whole story before the next game came out and I started playing. I was just having so much fun playing and re-playing the levels as I went.
I play very few games, but I play the crap out of them. I've only ever really played the Thief series (actually TDS only through once), the Elder Scrolls series (from Morrowind on), and Fallout 3. Now I'm starting to play the crap out of The Dark Mod. I've played a little bit of other stuff here and there, but don't like them nearly as well. The Thief series is by far my favorite, and Thief means a hell of a lot to me. It's been a huge part of my life.
Briareos H on 25/5/2013 at 07:50
I sometimes hate WS' guts but here he comes off as pretty consistent and aware of both games. I like how he keeps being in awe at the fact that the core of the Thief experience is something deeply minimalist, which is absolutely true and key to approaching the game. He understands Thief but knows he can't make a game like that, and indeed doesn't agree that the player should be thrown into the simulation pit without a safety net.
I think he is actually a bit jealous of Church. I've always felt that kind of insecurity in his talks and games, that makes him a lesser designer than Church, but both guys' ability to conceptualise is on the same level. I had already seen this talk before but it's always a pleasure to watch and frankly, it could last a few more hours and I wouldn't be annoyed in the slightest.
