Shakey-Lo on 12/9/2008 at 08:22

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I think it's "environment".

Koki on 12/9/2008 at 13:39

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Ba dum tshhh!

The "M" in PvM was always for "mob". But I didn't play many MMORPGs so I'm not going to push it.

Gryzemuis on 12/9/2008 at 15:50

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I'm not sure that is a fair judgement.
How do you know my age ??

Yes, I play WoW. And yes, I've played it a lot. But that doesn't make it so that you can't discuss games with me. One of the things I like about playing games, is trying to analyze and understand what makes a game good. Or makes it bad. What makes it attract other players. What makes it addictive. And that is what I tried to do here.



Yes, the pve grind isn't exactly rocket surgery. I agree on that. Most games are not rocket surgery.

But my point was that the games get simpler and simpler. I think the games of the nineties, with less eye candy, had more complexity. Or to be more precise: there used to be more games that had some complexity. System Shock 2 was maybe not very difficult, but there were many details you could try to figure out.

When you play pve (Player versus Environment, btw) in an MMORPG, you need to learn a few things. You need to learn where everything is. Your in-game maps only help so much. You need to figure out where to go to for the next bunch of quests. You need to figure out where to get materials for your professions. What materials are needed. You need to figure out strategies for boss fights. Etc. It's not hard. But it's something that changes while you level and progress. And websites like (www.thottbot.com) make it a lot easier too. But compared to Battlegrounds like AV, it is imho more complex. Or more diverse. I'm not talking arenas here. In arenas you need to be good, because you will see direct results (losing) if you are not. In Battlegrounds you can just join the zerg, and your personal impact hardly matters. For a full pvp set, you need 250k honor or more. That's at least 250 hours of play. And 200 of those 250 hours can (and should) be in Alterac Valley. One battleground. Same gameplay, same strategy. 250 hours of repeated gameplay. In AV you hardly fight other players, you zerg the enemy NPCs. (AV has changed a lot in the last 3 years, since it was introduced in June 2005).

I don't like that direction. But I see many games going in that direction. Make it even simpler than it is. Have markers on the maps (and minimaps) telling you exactly where to find a "hidden chest". The flow of quests is becoming even more uni-directional than it was before. Just like in FPSs, where they all tend to be "shooter on rails". I loved Morrowind, because you had no clue where to go, but all directions were fun and interesting.

Anyway, I could go on. But I hope my point is clear. Games become more simple every day. And WAR fits that pattern.

RavynousHunter on 12/9/2008 at 23:02

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Fallout 1? The 1st cRPG? What about, say, Ultima II or IV? Those came about loooooooong before Fallout and were, by definition, cRPGs.

That's of course, assuming I didn't misconstrue what you meant in your post.


I agree that PvE grinding gets kinda old. However, if ya have some buddies with ya, you can manage even the worst of PvE grinds. Still gets old, tho; I much prefer either wandering in the different towns and messing with people or doing some good-ol PvP.

Koki on 13/9/2008 at 07:25

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Slowly dying off? Last cRPG comparable to Fallout was Arcanum, that was, 7 years ago I think?