uncadonego on 9/9/2007 at 11:46
:joke: JUST KIDDING!!:laff:
I agree that too much dead space is pointless. I do like a few dark and quiet dead ends evenly spaced through a layout to hide unconscious folks, drop useless items without being heard, etc., but not a lot of space with nothing to do.
As for some locks needing a key, well, I'm sure some locks are better than others for that. Even some cars today are known by blacksmiths as the hardest to open for people who've locked themselves out.
The window and door issue, well..., if you want an openable window, and there are 32 window textures on the side of a single building, that's a lot of objects and pathfinding for nothing. Some things are just common sense design restrictions, as I'm sure you're aware.
I agree that at times LGS made some huge levels and then didn't seem to fill some of those spaces with much of anything to speak of. Soulforge comes to mind, although I still enjoyed it.
Don't anyone worry about being disliked for stating something negative. Remember that the worst aspect of some of the OM's was part of the question as well.:)
Nightstroll on 9/9/2007 at 13:09
Quote:
The dracula series from Sensut for example": He added his own "creatures" and sounds to this series of FM's. I was glad to be able to test his newest game: Elizabeth Bathory and I really liked it, when I discovered some typical "Sensut stuff" in there. The game gets its own character by it.
Hmm, from a general maneer, Sensut haven't created any meshes or objects, it comes from DromEd Deluxe. ;)
Ziemanskye on 9/9/2007 at 13:25
Just as an extra little qualification from before:
I do like some quiet spaces - my problem was more with the number/size of them. You've got to have some places to rest in otherwise the pacing of the level gets out of whack.
And on the doors/windows/etc: It's a taste thing, some people liked having to frob every door and then check it with both lockpicks and as many keys in the their inventories as they had. For my preference, I'd like to just be able to glance at a door and see "this one needs a key" or "this one needs picked or a key" or "this one will just open" or "this one wont open, ever" - and using different textures or other obvious markings is probably the easiest/most accessible way of doing that.
Engine restrictions are probably quite a big part of it though: I don't know how Dark works, or what can be done with/to it, so especially with larger levels it could be an issue of not being allowed that many textures or not having space for a whole range of lock/handle objects or whatever.
uncadonego on 12/9/2007 at 13:00
Level 1 - Running Interference
BEST FEATURE: Clearing the way for someone; also a mansion not built with too many cubes, little nooks and crannies and angles.
WORST FEATURE: more activity upstairs would have been nice; no nobles at home wasn't so great either.
Level 2 - Shipping ... and Receiving
BEST FEATURE: multiple points of entry, open ended objectives, lots to explore.
WORST FEATURE: clipping of scenery and disappearing objects from certain POV's, repetitive nature of the door lock mechanism.
Level 3 - Framed
BEST FEATURE: partial or complete ghosting feature was nice just this once. Lots of secrets and "back doors".
WORST FEATURE: a little bit more substantial city area outside would have been nice. The Easter Egg was cool though.....
Level 4 - Ambush!
BEST FEATURE: Large city with lots to explore and find. Use of travelling through sewers and canals. Dark spaces to hide without being too dark everywhere.
WORST FEATURE: More rooftops would have been nice, although they did incorporate some upper areas.
Level 5 - Eavesdropping
BEST FEATURE: Use of variable location of key for replay value, but could be implemented in more and larger ways.
WORST FEATURE: Nab key, hear conversation, steal stuff...meh. A bit of a wandering mission.
Level 6 - First City Bank and Trust
BEST FEATURE:
WORST FEATURE:
Level 7 - Blackmail
BEST FEATURE: Lots to do and find, nice enough outer area as well, decent secrets. Decent conversations and unfolding of story.
WORST FEATURE: Maybe oversized a bit for what it was supposed to be with unrealistic stair hallways, etc.
Level 8 - Trace the Courier
BEST FEATURE: Decent concept, follow someone without getting caught. Some don't like the re-use of the city layout, but I do. It seems realistic that way.
WORST FEATURE: Waiting for the pagan to come along and pick up the letter was a long wait.
Level 9 - Trail of Blood
BEST FEATURE: I like the pagan aspect and T1 connection here, bringing back a T1 character. The areas were pretty too. Retelling of what happened through transparent actors was better than too many readables. After all, you don't write a journal entry during a seige.
WORST FEATURE:There wasn't anything that I would call "worst" here, except maybe gameplay went on just a tad too long before the payoff.
Level 10 - Life of the Party
BEST FEATURE: Great gameplay concept, cool conversations, lots of climbing and mantling, etc. Just awesome fun. Still my favourite OM of all.
WORST FEATURE: I hate to be a nitpicker, but misaligned textures.
Level 11 - Precious Cargo
BEST FEATURE: The lighthouse area and the old shack were cool areas. The rope arrowing up from the rowboat was good too, as well as the old pirate shacks.
WORST FEATURE: Too convoluted layout makes it disorienting at times.
Level 12 - Kidnap
BEST FEATURE: Nice to see the lost city again...
WORST FEATURE:...but the lost city was always too convoluted a layout as well. Disorienting
Level 13 - Casing the Joint
BEST FEATURE: Nice mansion and cool secret passages. Nice to be able to disable the watchers.
WORST FEATURE: Unrealistically large with a huge guard to civilian ratio.
Level 14 - Masks
BEST FEATURE: choice of disabling the gas floor traps upstairs or using rope arrows and the beams above.
WORST FEATURE: Too soon to be repeating a layout.
Level 15 - Sabotage at Soulforge
BEST FEATURE: Karras' prattling reveals much of the story, lots to manufacture and many ways to get around from area to area.
WORST FEATURE: Many huge areas for no reason.
Thelvyn on 12/9/2007 at 16:59
I do not have time (Or even the memory to do it accurately) to go over each of the OM.
However I would like to say that it took YEARS before the first Gold Hammer was awarded(IIRC). There was nothing but bronze missions available for the longest time. Yes the OM have some shortcomings but it was a very long time before they were surpassed by anyone.
Now of course the situation is reversed, but having 9 years to learn what you can and cannot do or at the very least pick other peoples brain for the info is a great help that they did not have back then.
Also Thanks to all the authors. I am incapable of dealing with dromed myself unfortunately(Or lack of time/patience really).
The Phantom on 14/9/2007 at 13:48
Quote Posted by uncadonego
I still see inspiring things in the original missions that I think many author's don't incorporate into their missions, prettier or not.
I fully agree with this.
Of course many new dromEders aren't as talented in creating missions like team Looking Glass, but can certainly, and should imo, take inspiration from the om's.
After playing 'Cathedral of the Damned' recently, it really amazed me how well this mission is created in the line of looking glass.
The first years of Fm building created some perfect thief stlye fan creations, while in the last years I feel that overall we leave this line. There are exceptions, but we focus more on throwing in various good looking textures, just to make it look beautiful, with result that it often fail to create a fitting atmosphere. Sometimes I walk through a part of a level and think "Is this the same mission I was playing a minute ago?"
Nothing wrong with custom stuff, but it should be used with care and a well-invented plan behind it.
This thread is a great idea (I might post my own list later).
To keep creating thief style missions, we should focus on the aspects that made the OM's good, and re-playing those, as well as the classic fan missions like 'Equilibrium', 'The Inverted Manse' and 'The Seventh Crystal', to name a few.
Those are original, complex and all great aspects create a perfec entity. Team T2X did this very well.
So yeah, we can still learn a lot from the masters.
Quote Posted by uncadonego
Let's put it this way-No custom objects or textures or anything. Same stock resources as LGS for FM developers. Same playing field. The only things that would stick out as better or worse would be gameplay, story, architecture,etc..
I would like to see some upcoming missions made with this in mind.
uncadonego on 16/9/2007 at 19:52
Quote Posted by The Phantom
I fully agree with this.
To keep creating thief style missions, we should focus on the aspects that made the OM's good, and re-playing those, as well as the classic fan missions like 'Equilibrium', 'The Inverted Manse' and 'The Seventh Crystal', to name a few.
Those are original, complex and all great aspects create a perfec entity. Team T2X did this very well.
So yeah, we can still learn a lot from the masters.
I would like to see some upcoming missions made with this in mind.
Agreed, and it is those aspects I would like people to consider and list-not just the players, but the FM builders as well. Even if an FM builder wants to be original and not just do the same stuff over again, I still think it would be a good idea for them to consider the best aspects of their favourite OM and ask themselves how they can incorporate them into their own missions.
lonzboy on 3/10/2007 at 17:51
The one thing, if anything, that FM makers should strive for as well as LGS did is to allow more than one, if not multiple ways of completing objectives and getting around in the game. Once in a while in a mission it's OK if there is only one way to go, but most of the time try to leave it as open ended as possible.
Rokinath on 19/2/2016 at 22:25
Pardon the necro, but this idea seemed fun, so I wanted to pitch in.
Level 1 - Running Interference
BEST FEATURE: Wonderfully paced for newcomers or those who finished Thief 1 to get back into the swing of things.
WORST FEATURE: Bit small but that's to be expected as the first level.
Level 2 - Shipping ... and Receiving
BEST FEATURE: Poking around each warehouse shop and discovering the nature of their owners.
WORST FEATURE: Getting the secrets in Warehouse B mostly involve going through the skylights (which you have to break). Its noisy and amateurish for Garrett's standards... I suppose he did talk about those in the briefing, mind. ;)
Level 3 - Framed
BEST FEATURE: Having to infiltrate a police station, what's not to love? The level is fraught with tension from the moment you emerge from the sewers.
WORST FEATURE: The logistics of the armoury bother me.
Level 4 - Ambush!
BEST FEATURE: Something I'd been wanting since Assassins - a level set in the City's streets. Absolutely sublime urbane thieving action.
WORST FEATURE: Not enough buildings to explore.
Level 5 - Eavesdropping
BEST FEATURE: The titular eavesdropping. Couldn't just go AFK during the conversation because of the key.
WORST FEATURE: After the first playthrough, the best feature becomes the worst. Alternatively, the fact you will never see the inside of the conference room (because there isn't one).
Level 6 - First City Bank and Trust
BEST FEATURE: Its a freaking bank robbery! Massive, sprawling, teeming with loot and flavoured with little snippets left by the bankers who work there.
WORST FEATURE: The mechanism to unlock the vault door. I hate those kind of things.
Level 7 - Blackmail
BEST FEATURE: Equal to Shoalsgate in terms of tension, for the same reason. Go into the private abode of the leader of the City Watch? Sure, why not.
WORST FEATURE: Honestly there's a few small niggles here, (collecting gear keys, never getting to blackmail Truart (darn plot!) and the secret basement stuff is kind of cheap)) and no particular one stands out.
Level 8 - Trace the Courier
BEST FEATURE: I'm really getting Assassin's deja vu from this one (that's a good thing).
WORST FEATURE: The deja vu is probably helped by the fact this is the same level as Ambush. Sadly, its emptier than what it was before.
Level 9 - Trail of Blood
BEST FEATURE: Melancholy overdose. When you hear the music and witness the ghosts of the village, I was left saddened and haunted (thought it was going to turn into a full on supernatural mission). When I heard Human voices I was delighted; finally, some company! The joy quickly evaporated as I realised it was the Mechanists who murdered all the inhabitants.
WORST FEATURE: How exactly did the Maw of Chaos change so drastically? Why do I feel like I've answered my own question? Either way, I would've liked if the game had gone into more depth on the Maw's tumultuous nature.
JOINT WORST: Dewdrop. Not sure how a crude doll can work as a flash bomb, nor do I get the appeal of it (since it seems to be in most fan missions).
Level 10 - Life of the Party
BEST FEATURE: Hard not to just put in "the whole mission" here. The approach to Angelwatch was slow, since you'd be poking around in every house you could get into. Once you got to the tower itself, the level took on a whole new dimension.
WORST FEATURE: Call me greedy, but I would've loved to have picked the streets clean as well.
Level 11 - Precious Cargo
BEST FEATURE: The moment you discover the Cetus Amicus.
WORST FEATURE: Figuring out where the pirate cavern was.
Level 12 - Kidnap
BEST FEATURE: Seeing the Lost City again was like meeting an old friend.
WORST FEATURE: Hunting down Cavador.
Level 13 - Casing the Joint
BEST FEATURE: Nice to get back to speed with a mansion level.
WORST FEATURE: Feels like getting caught is based on a coin flip.
Level 14 - Masks
BEST FEATURE: Finally being let off the reigns after the last mission. No guard shall be remain conscious this night.
WORST FEATURE: Its the same level, and it'll still take you a hour minimum. Begins to feel stale after that.
Level 15 - Sabotage at Soulforge
BEST FEATURE: The oppressive feeling from the moment the mission starts. The army of robots, the treacherous machinery and traps you have to weave through, and Karras' monologues as his sanity dwindles further.
WORST FEATURE: The slow realisation that you can't actually fail the mission in any manner.
JOIN WORST: The amount of machinery that doesn't seem to serve any purpose.
P.S. Wonder if we should give Thief: TDP / Thief Gold the same treatment. :P
uncadonego on 22/2/2016 at 03:56
The idea behind this thread sort of ended up as The Classic Thief Experience Contest where the FM makers list their favourite OM and why and try to recreate that experiences and feelings in their own mission.
