Beleg Cúthalion on 28/1/2008 at 19:48
...and TDS was already in development when they figured out the engine's weaknesses. I read Doc_Browns retrospective a few days ago and he gets it quite well (also affirmed by Krypt). I'd like everyone to read it. By the way, left aside that I e.g. don't think the TDP/TMA human animations looked more believable, I still wonder when the first guy will complain about the TDS compass not having a red top showing north. I cannot really comprehend how some people can criticise almost every little thing in TDS. I don't (have to) think it is the best part of the series (and as a non-native speaker of English I have even more reasons), but can still take a balanced position.
@jtr7: Please call me when you're doing the analyzing stuff for the canon; I'd like to annoy you about some of the issues like the sealed section or the steampunk elements. ;) :p
Jarvis on 28/1/2008 at 22:30
A lot of griping happens in regards to the technical side of TDS, but in my opinion that's the lesser of the evils in TDS. The team had a lot of constraints and technical issues mixed with tension in the office. Technically speaking, I'm not surprised by how lackluster and lazy TDS came out.
It's the destruction of the milieu that frustrates me. I've said this before, but I feel it bears repeating...
The Keeper enforcers were *terrible*. The Keepers are an organization apparently so hung up on secrecy and balance; that they are unwilling to allow a scribe to document Keeper history (I can't remember the actual note, but do you remember the readable you find near the secret door to the library in the Keeper compound).
This is the feel I got from the originals as well. The Keepers never diretly influenced *anything*. They knew Karras was up to no good, but they sit on their hands and decide to let Garrett handle it, again. They are just that bent out of shape over secrecy.
So why in the hell do they have enforcers that walk the streets openly *murdering* everyone they see? What do you think the people wouldn't ask questions? It's ridiculous. It pulled me out of the storyline so much.
Not to mention all the other weirdness the Keepers did in TDS. An invisible keep? Glyph spells? Did you see all the people in the compound? How many "stealthy" watchers did you see? You saw a bunch of thugs in black; and a bunch of goofball wizards straight out of a bad D&D campaign, didn't you?
Garrett was bastardized as well. He was eating out of Artemus' hand! I know he said "tell me more" at the end of Thief 2... but I have a hard time seeing Garrett doing the Keeper's dirty work solely so he can look at some Keeper prophecies. Can you say cheap plot device?
I don't hate TDS for its technical difficulties, I hate it for its blatant lack of respect for the atmosphere and milieu of the originals. Honestly, they shouldn't have put the Thief name on it. That's how bad they messed up on the storyline. It's like a bizarro alternate dimension.
That is coupled with the fact that technically speaking, it's a flop. Ion Storm ensured that not only would I hate the storyline, but that I'd be barred from enjoying the pure gameplay as well. There's no accounting for taste, and every is entitled to their own opinions...
I have to say though, in my mind, TDS never happened. When I consider Garrett's storyline, the events of TDS simply don't exist. When I tell people to try Thief, I exclude TDS from that statement. I disown TDS. It's terrible. When asked about a third installment, I point people to T2X.
Lovecraftian on 29/1/2008 at 03:23
Another thing i disliked is how they deleted the previous plots of the series just to appeal to console players. I mean, in Deadly Shadows despite a few texts you get the impression the Mechanists never happend.
I fully believe that the Mechanists were the greatest villians of the series, and to just pretend they all disanded etc is just silly, especially considering the genius and charisma of Karras....if anything, when Karras died, the Mechanists would have grown stronger, perhaps declaring him a saint or even the son of the builder....the wouldn't just disband....
Meh, mahybe secret mechanist cults willl return in Thief 4, if there ever is one....
Goldmoon Dawn on 29/1/2008 at 03:27
No, you don't get it. Karrass intended on destroying *everyone* Mechs included. I'm sure after Thief II, the Mechs realised this and abrubtly disbanded.
:)
Lovecraftian on 29/1/2008 at 03:32
No, i refuse to believe! Karras wanted a paradise fulll of funky robots!!!;)
Sorry, i'm very MA biased. MA was the game that made me fall in love with thief.
New Horizon on 29/1/2008 at 04:41
Quote Posted by Lovecraftian
....if anything, when Karras died, the Mechanists would have grown stronger, perhaps declaring him a saint or even the son of the builder....the wouldn't just disband....
Exactly. They were freaking die hard in their beliefs. If anything, they would have called him a martyr and erected statues of him everywhere they could...although, I'm sure some would have splintered off back to the Hammers and that would have caused all kinds of fun. I felt TDS really dropped the ball on continuing the storyline of Thief 2.
The Magpie on 29/1/2008 at 10:53
After having read this, I wonder if I'll ever buy or play TDS. I have only tested the Blue Heron Inn courtesy of a friend, back when it was released.
Doc_Brown's (
http://foxhole.starfoxweb.com/index.php?module=ProdReviews&func=showcontent&id=21) retrospective was very helpful to me in pointing out the good and the bad technical issues. Thanks for pointing it out, Beleg. The participants of this thread have made me aware (with a minimum of spoilers) of the story issues. I'm not sure if I even wish to see the Thief story concluded in the way Ion Storm Austin implemented it.
I'm starting to wonder, though. Would one like to have the gameplay of TDS re-imagined in any way at all? Flux has shown that the (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1693571) City sections may be joined, at least. And the Minimalist Project is a very admirable effort in itself.
But I wonder if one would want to recreate the
story with another engine? An alternate history/parallel universe, if you like, where some of the points raised in this thread would be addressed.
Architecture more consistent with the previous games. Swimmable water, rope arrows, expanded levels, making them more impressive. Tying up the loose Mechanist thread. Those kind of things.
I'm just wondering. Would it make the game more palatable? What would the TDS Redux have to include to become a more satisfactory Thief game? Do we have a list of this already in this thread?
(Please continue to go easy on the spoilers.)
--
Larris
Beleg Cúthalion on 29/1/2008 at 14:12
Apart from the levels being choped in two, I found them quite impressive (what Doc also said, iirc). If we manage to make a Glue-the-missions patch, if you take the TDS Tweaker (which fixes things like the many intro movies, the useless tipps etc.), the MP and JohnP's high-res textures, you'll get not only a better version of TDS, but also a really good computer game – at least that's what I think. It still is immersive, however in a different way than the previous games. And really, for five euros/dollars/pounds you could do worse.
The Magpie on 30/1/2008 at 01:47
You're of course right. Besides, there's The Dark Mod.
But the story... I'm still unsure about that. Knowing now that initial design documents for TDS levels would likely have contained features (underwater areas, for instance) that had to be cut later, some story tweaking must have occured.
I don't know, I just feel that it's hard to top the TDP story, too.
--
L.
gunsmoke on 30/1/2008 at 16:30
What did I hate most about Thief: DS?
That it ended....:(
