Chade on 14/2/2008 at 02:34
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
That ain't never gonna happen with this title, friend. It just wasn't designed to be "deep".
The core stealth mechanics are either unchanged (sound) or more complicated (shadows, AI). Whatever problems T3 has, it's not that the core gameplay wasn't meant to be deep.
Goldmoon Dawn on 14/2/2008 at 03:08
Indeed. The Missions themselves seemed to be too small and also split in half...
The original Dark Missions *were* designed to be played, mastered, and talked about for years. They knew it, and the Deadly team knew it. Do you know it?
Chade on 14/2/2008 at 03:58
Enough with the hyperbole. I've been playing thief since the Bafford mansion demo was released, and am fully aware of how deep T1/2 can be.
I can't tell you exactly how deep T3 actually is in practice, because I don't have that sort of time to get into games anymore (nor would I trust your opinion on the matter). What I can tell you is that based on the core gameplay mechanics, there is no indication that T3 was meant to be less deep, on the harder difficulty levels, then the previous games. The core gameplay mechanics in T3 are more advanced then those in T1 and T2.
Ok, so the reduced level size makes more difference then the improvements to the core mechanics. I'm not saying the game, as implemented, is without problems. But we all know this has nothing to do with the developers wanting the game to be that way. Sure, a cynical thief fan might claim an indirect link. This doesn't mean that the developers didn't intend the game to be "that deep".
You don't like the game, and you have some valid points. Fair enough. That doesn't excuse exaggerated blanket statements with no basis in reality.
yubetcha on 14/2/2008 at 11:29
It seems to me that if we separate TDS from the others, and consider it on its own merits, then we would like it more, simply because we don't have the experience of the other games to consider or put into the mix. I may be wrong, though. I have experienced the other games, so this is just a guess, but if I had never played the other two, then I am sure that I would consider this to be a better game. I would probably look at it much more favorably than I do. I wouldn't be wishing for rope or vine arrows every time that I look up. I wouldn't be wishing that Garret could swim. I wouldn't be thinking that the story or characters had been compromised, because I wouldn't know about the story or characters from the other games. I wouldn't be thinking that Garret's movement is rather awkward. Loading zones would probably not matter as much to me as they do. (BTW, I have been guessing this for quite a few years, but did they put in the loading zones just because of the console?). I think that the experience of the other two sours the experience of this game somewhat. Perhaps even if it's just a little. But if I cut the other two games out and just consider this one only, then those other things would not matter to me.
jtr7 on 14/2/2008 at 12:00
The point of view of which you speak is precisely the reaction we see when TDS is a newbie's first foray into the world of Thief. Unfortunately, their excitement is treated as juvenile naïveté. I know what you mean, but TDS still has those flaws that never become endearing qualities. So yes, we would be less jaded, but we'd still be griping more than we do about the other titles.
And yes, the loading zones--at least, the number of them--is the result of making it fit a console with limited memory. There's a dev quote somewhere about wishing the X-Box had more capacity. I'll find it.
Not this one from QUOTES.SCH: "Ian - RE: memory constraints on the xbox: 'Well I could just get a bunch of stuffed animals and a small box.'"
yubetcha on 14/2/2008 at 12:35
I don't understand. Why would the things I mentioned be seen as juvenile naïveté? I am not a noob, or juvenile. Were you referring to loading zones? Because I don't see how the lack of swimming or no rope arrows could be seen that way. And I could possibly see where the loading zones would be taken that way (because most games don't have them). But I figured that they were necessary, and I thought that it was probably because of the console.
WOW! this thread has 155 replies. The "good" one only has 47. I guess that says something in itself.
:)
jtr7 on 14/2/2008 at 12:53
:o Where did I call you anything? You're not a newbie to Thief, and I didn't use the term "noob". I said the newbies who come here, that discovered the Thief world through TDS, make posts that sound young and inexperienced to the rest of us, because they don't know what they missed. I agreed with you that not knowing about the previous games makes TDS look even better, and the complaints would be less than they are.:)
yubetcha on 14/2/2008 at 14:54
Quote Posted by jtr7
:o Where did I call you anything? You're not a newbie to Thief, and I didn't use the term "noob". I said the newbies who come here, that discovered the Thief world through TDS, make posts that
sound young and inexperienced to the rest of us, because they don't know what they missed. I agreed with you that not knowing about the previous games makes TDS look even better, and the complaints would be less than they are.:)
I can see where you would read that from what I wrote, but I didn't mean that you called me anything. I didn't think that at all. It was clear to me what you meant by "newbie's first foray into the world of Thief" and "juvenile naïveté". I knew that it was about new people (hence 'newbies' or noobs) being naive and inexperienced. I didn't see it as a comment about me. I meant that I am not a newbie or a juvi, and I saw them enough to mention them, and I didn't see why other posters would be taken as naive noobs. IOW, I am an experienced player, and *I* saw it. It had nothing to do with being a noob. But then I figured out that you were not referring to rope arrows and some of the other things mentioned, but only referring to the loading zones. Correct? And in that case, I would agree with you. If that's not right, let me know. Does that make sense? Reading it back, I am not sure that it does. Hope so. Know what I mean, jelly bean? :)
Beleg Cúthalion on 14/2/2008 at 15:36
If there is in fact a clear (and comprehensible) impression of the real first Thief games and the whole universe that the real fans have in their heads, I wonder why at least half of what has come out until now as fanworks etc. is rather far away from the original impression I* had. So telling that the TDS-newbies had a somehow fatuous idea of what Thief is - compared to the...let's call it pluralistic exegesis of the rest of the community - seems to me a little out of place. Ah, I like our little miniature science here. :)
* having played TDP and TMA before TDS
fibanocci on 14/2/2008 at 19:11
Quote Posted by New Horizon
I disliked the fact that I ended up disliking the game. :(
Yep, that's what I'm saying.
Want me to play it again?
*
couldn't pay me enough*
