Frisco on 20/2/2003 at 23:33
I don't like the idea of an boss-monster or a very strong enemy at the end of a thief-mission. I think there are a few missions with that concept. Another thing are scripted guards, they can see you even in the dark, so you have to kill them.
Too well hidden loot you find very often in Fanmissions. You have all objectives fullfilled and are just missing a few coins or a small ring, which you have too find to get the loot-objective ticked off. I don't like searching the whole mission all over again to complete it.
kfort on 21/2/2003 at 01:56
I agree with the earlier comment about doors swinging the wrong. It is really easy to fix doors so they open into rooms and can really reduce frustration. I hate having to close all the doors just to walk down a hallway! A little thought to the logical opening direction would really help.
I'm not a fan of robots, spiders, and zombies, but I accept them in small quantities. However, I get very very annoyed when I am in a mission with a zombie or robot and all I have are a couple moss arrows and a blackjack or some such thing. If zombies are in a level, I want to see holy water or flashbombs. If there are robots then I need water arrows. Of course, this is really a personal preference, so others may disagree. Personally, I just can't enjoy the thrill of a zombie if I can't kill it. :ebil:
I also really hate areas filled with bright lights, guards, and tile. No nooks or crannies to hide in. No place to shoot a rope arrow. Just guards and bright light. A few such areas placed in meaningful locations are okay. But I hate missions with great chunks of these areas filling up the map, without any regard for a person who needs shadow! While I don't usually ghost a level, poor lighting and excessive use of stone or tile really bothers me.
Poor roombrushing is another bother. I shouldn't be able to hear a guard walking on the third floor when I'm in the basement! (or visa versa) I can't count the number of times I have wastes ten minutes waiting for a guard to pass who was actually on the floor above me! Roombrushing is quite critical, even though it can be a nightmare to do on larger levels.
Doors and chests should be pickable unless there is a reasonable explaination for needing a key. Garrett is a master thief. Unless a lock is very special, he should have no problem picking it (nor should it take him very long!). It is reasonable to lock a door if it is important for the storyline/plot for the player not to enter a certain place, but not just to make it harder. And if a chest/room is empty, it should not be locked in anyway. After all, who locks an empty chest? Also, label keys! This is really simple and a joy for the player. After the third key, I can no longer keep track of where I found them and if I've used them. They need to be named!
As a general thing, empty rooms and bad architecture detract from playing. If I am going to spend time in a mission, I want to enjoy looking at the screen. ;) But even down-right ugly architecture is okay as long as gameplay doesn't suffer because of it - for instance, passages which are too low or too narrow to fit, ladders you fall off and die, water you can't get out of, wide open spaces which cause the game to crash, and mazes. It is also nice to get a couple pieces of loot from each building you enter. It doesn't need to be much, but it is good to find it. Also, loot in a few harder to reach areas makes it worth going to the trouble of sneaking past guards, picking doors, or climbing buildings.
This doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while I play a mission which has no ambient sound (except, of course, for torches and machines). After a while the shear silence starts to get on my nerves. I like a little mood music and well-done sounds really set the mood for a level (and change it when needed).
Anyways, these are my thoughts/opinions, for what they're worth. :)
demagogue on 21/2/2003 at 02:58
On scrolls, books, etc... Not only do I get frustrated with really long texts, like others have said, but I hate it when I have to wait for the whole text screen to come up only for it to say three words. :tsktsk:
On the other hand, to be more constructive, I love it when designers make short texts pop up automatically on the screen above, plaque style. Every short text should be like that, I think, even for books.
And as for long texts, I think the idea in Theif Noir to have music playing in the background in the text screen was such a great idea. :idea: Not only did it completely change my usual initial reaction *not _another_ book* into *hmm, I wonder what this says*, especially when the music fits the mood of the text, but I've also noticed that in really tense moments, when the ambient sounds really have me sucked into the game, the sudden silence of the text screen can break the whole mood. But if you could keep the ambient going into the text screen, it would do a lot to keep the atmosphere.
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I have to add an edit to this now that I think about it. I shouldn't have been so dogmatic. There are some times where levels are great precisely b/c they know when and how to break the rules. Re: waiting for a text screen saying only three words...never was it done more effectively than in DP!!! :ebil:
The idea, I guess, is never say never. Just put some thought into what you are doing, have some reason for what goes into a level, and think about how they might be received... It's certainly not a hard rule, just a nice gesture. As this forum proves time and again, people notice the little things.
Origami Thief on 21/2/2003 at 10:10
One aspect of Thief 2 that I have started to have mixed feelings about is the ability of Garrett to lean forward and knock out guards as they wander towards you. When I first discovered this ability (through the forums) I was like a child with a new toy piling bodies right up to the ceiling.
The problem is that I now use it too much because it is an "easy" method to complete missions quickly. Find a dark corner near some guards, make a load of noise, and watch them wander blindly to their doom. Part of me feels that it cheapens the game a little (and before anyone says it, I know I don't have to play like that but the temptation is strong and the body weak) because clearly even the stupidest guards would become suspicious after seeing their comrades collapse in a heap on the floor in front of them.
Another aspect of Thief generally I find annoying is when a guard standing right next to another guard doesn't bat an eyelid when his colleague collapses to the ground right next to him. Errr, I don't think so. I think he might notice something a little amiss.
I also dislike the fact that 99% of guards seem to be shockingly myopic, though I suppose opticians weren't that common back then.
One thing that amuses me (more than annoys me) is when designers place arrows in places that they perceive as apt. For instance placing moss arrows in gardens and water arrows near a leaking ceiling etc etc as though the arrows are produced naturally. Errrr I don't think so!
But ultimately what annoys me most is how incredibly creative and imaginative all the designers are on the forum. I am totally jealous. You are all way too clever. But keep it up eh.
Brian T on 21/2/2003 at 19:36
Quote:
Originally posted by Origami Thief One aspect of Thief 2 that I have started to have mixed feelings about is the ability of Garrett to lean forward and knock out guards as they wander towards you. When I first discovered this ability (through the forums) I was like a child with a new toy piling bodies right up to the ceiling.
The problem is that I now use it too much because it is an "easy" method to complete missions quickly. Find a dark corner near some guards, make a load of noise, and watch them wander blindly to their doom. Part of me feels that it cheapens the game a little (and before anyone says it, I know I don't have to play like that but the temptation is strong and the body weak) because clearly even the stupidest guards would become suspicious after seeing their comrades collapse in a heap on the floor in front of them.
It doesn't always work! I tried the method of blackjacking guards from a dark area but it's not a 100% guaranteed way of sucess. Trust me. There's been times when guards have stumbled on a colleage in front of them and then as I swing the blackjack- too late, they're alert, and it's a swordfight or run away. This techniqure only seems to work with dozy guards. Guards who have actually seen you before, or have seen a body, are much more alert and trying to blackjack them from a shadow, even if your visibility gem is dark, is a risky business. It's really safer using the standard approach from behind blackjacking technique.
By the way I hate lenghyh reading in missions too. If there are some helpful clues then fine, but I dislike reading a scroll or book only for it to be a grocery list, or an inventory, or a Hammer hym.
OHHDEAR on 21/2/2003 at 22:04
Origami, if you want better guards, play thief in real life. Those changes are limits on the Thief engine for programmers and to make the game playable.
And the arrows don't spawn naturally, those "arrows" you pick up are crystals with which you make your arrows.
EmperorSteele on 22/2/2003 at 01:46
Youd rather see a fire crystal in the water?
I thik the game designers ahve made it pretty clear that the crystals form naturally in thier given enviroments. Look at "Into the maw" in T1: Gas arrows in wind chambers, fire arrows in the lava pits, water arrows on the ice slide. So "kwitchyerbitchin" =P
Brian T on 22/2/2003 at 14:12
Speaking of blackjacking have any fan missions implemented the concept of only blackjacking a maximun number of guards, or even no blackjacking? The missions Framed and Casing The Joint in Thief 2 had these. Very good idea IMO. It pays more to be stealthy in that case. Blackjacking is then a luxury that you take for granted!. I've dowloaded lots of Thief 2 FMs but haven't found the time to actually get round to playing them. Is it possible to make a Thief 1 FM with no blackjacking allowed?
yandros on 22/2/2003 at 14:35
I was playing a FM just the other day which limited KO's on Expert... but I can't remember which one. Someone help out here? Nightwalker? :)
DILLIGAFF on 23/2/2003 at 01:07
Quote:
Lengthy lockpicking of chests which have no content, or are far from guards. Pointless dull and frustrating..
I agree with the part about lockpicking empty chests, but it DOES make sence to lock a chest that is far from guards..... after all, something has to protect that stack of copper if there isn't any AI around.
I personnaly hate creeping an inch at a time across the marble floor to a chest with guards strolling up my backside, deftly picking the lock, and being rewarded with a hammer/mech mace/boulder or something equally loud. Granted, its a nice low tech security system, but DAMN I hate that!
Dilligaff
(Hmmmm, Dromed idea: Is it possible to give a boulder the properties of a blackjack, so I can at least toss it and knock the guy out)
