Jabberwocky on 4/3/2003 at 03:16
had a couple days to think about it not being able to get one here, but the OMs didn't really even NEED a loot objective, since the cash found in mission was what you used in the store for the next one. And I use ALL my toys and don't even bother with the Ghost theory. But with FMs, you can either have a cash objective, or why bother putting any loot in the game? After all, you can't consider yourself a thief if all you ever do is save the world :ebil:
theBlackman on 4/3/2003 at 03:31
Irrationality or lack of logic. As an example or two:
Traps that cannot be turned off. Such as the turrets in Soulforge. This lacks logic. If people have to get in the Turret room to work, and if the Turrets shoot everything that moves, there MUST be a way to deactivate them.
Traps that can be avoided with skill, such as the lazers, or arrow traps, need not have a shutoff available to the player, but others such as the turret room should have just as the EYES and Turrets in the other missions can.
In TDP Bonehoard. The room above the snoozing burrick. Only access is via a rope, and the torches are lit. No body, zombie or not, is going to climb the damn rope to get into the room, or to replace the torches.
These are simple examples. But it holds true for all OM's and FM's. Nothing should be in there without some rational explanation.
An out of the way room, with a rope to climb for entry should have a way in/out from the room that is other than the rope.
BlueNinja on 4/3/2003 at 04:20
My peeves, most of which have been listed --
ladders that you can't get off of without falling. And it's always falling long distances, to invariably end with a loud "splat."
tile of metal floors placed "just for the heck of it to alert the guards." There's a few spots of this in Lampfire Hills -- a perfectly normal stone stairway, and suddenly I'm clanging away like a 'bot.
areas that are lit brighter than daylight with nowhere to hide -- and no way to turn off the lights. WTF, people?
A ridiculous lack of equipment. Starting a mission with 2 water arrows and 5 broadheads makes me annoyed, espescially when I haven't found any other weapons after taking out two dozen guards.
Locks that require me to switch lockpicks more than three times. (See Chasing Sergeant Chase) If I have to switch lockpicks ten times for a lock, I'll switch to using my sword and break the damn door down.
More than four keys for a level. (again, Chasing Sergeant Chase -- about ten keys for the level)
Any mission that *requires* stacking crates to reach an area to merely continue the mission. Some of us just can't do it, you know!
Unnecessary comments from Garrett. (see TTGM - Making Tracks) Yes, I'm down a hole. I know I need to find a way to climb out, and I knew it before you said anything.
large numbers of undead, and no hiding spots, and no way to destroy them. Hey, I like destroying the undead, preferably in large groups. They need to be put out of my misery. (Props to Crom's Blade though -- I got to watch a zombie and a tiny spider "dancing" -- neither one could seem to strike the other one. on the downside, they forget about each other to instantly turn on you!)
openable-looking doors that go nowhere (see Lampfire Hills) or that *must* be bashed down to access the other side (see Crom's Blade) Either make it openable (lockpicks or whatever) or make it a "fake" door. There's enough of those in the Thief and Thief2 skins for you to do it.
guards carrying lanterns, or glowing monsters. Ok, this isn't really anything "wrong" with the level, but it bugs me to be hiding in a dark corner, hearing a guard I haven't seen approach, and then he rounds the corner with a lantern. (You can still use them, but please check for a few hiding spots where their light *doesn't* reach.)
Empty rooms. I mean completely empty. Either figure out something to put there, or get rid of it.
Now, after saying all of this, I've just finished downloading another 130mb or so of fan missions. Kudos to everybody! :thumb: I tried playing with dromed for all of about three days before giving up in disgust. There are some really awesome FMs out there, and I'm hoping to find some more on these two zip disks I'm bringing home. (Now if I can just figure out how to get Calendra's Legacy downloaded from the T1 at work and bring it home. :( )
Avalon on 4/3/2003 at 04:54
Quote:
Empty rooms. I mean completely empty. Either figure out something to put there, or get rid of it.
Some empty rooms have purposes. Mostly for hiding yourself along with a couple of bodies. This was true in the Bafford OM, for example - the place had a ton of empty useless rooms merely for the player to hide or stack bodies inside of, but otherwise they were entirely unremarkable and didn't even make much sense for being there.
However, that was an OM. FM designers don't often seem to put much thought into these things. The empty rooms rarely are close to tough sneaking zones or where a lot of bodies could get messy - because the tough sneaking zones are usually where the designer put most of his/her Creativity to use, and thus every room around it is populated with furniture, more AIs, and lots of cool-looking lighting that's useless for sneaking.
Preno on 4/3/2003 at 08:24
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueNinja My peeves, most of which have been listed --
tile of metal floors placed "just for the heck of it to alert the guards." There's a few spots of this in Lampfire Hills -- a perfectly normal stone stairway, and suddenly I'm clanging away like a 'bot'.
areas that are lit brighter than daylight with nowhere to hide -- and no way to turn off the lights. WTF, people?When a designer decides to put in a light / metal floor, s/he usually has a reason to do so - such as effectively blocking the player to go that way.
Quote:
Locks that require me to switch lockpicks more than three times. (See Chasing Sergeant Chase) If I have to switch lockpicks ten times for a lock, I'll switch to using my sword and break the damn door down.
Agreed, this is rather annoying. I can understand it if the door is in an area patrolled by the guards and the designer wants to make it more difficult but if I spend 2 minutes picking a chest in a room where noone can see or hear you.
Quote:
More than four keys for a level. (again, Chasing Sergeant Chase -- about ten keys for the level)
I don't mind that as long as they're all marked in the inventory.
Quote:
openable-looking doors that go nowhere (see Lampfire Hills) or that *must* be bashed down to access the other side (see Crom's Blade) Either make it openable (lockpicks or whatever) or make it a "fake" door.
There is actualy a key for the door in Crom's Blade... and most of the FM creators make unopenable doors unfrobbable.
Schwaa2 on 4/3/2003 at 09:09
I agree with alot of the arguments above. Its pretty hard just to put a level together and sometimes something seems cool, but turns out not to be. It helps to know what the players want and like, someof these missions (like AiLH were made long enough ago that nobody really new what most people liked- hence CL, lots of practice, great mission)
Of course it adds up to experience. For example: Crom's Blade (thanks for palying) did have at least one door that I purposely made bashable only. That was actually fixed along time ago but I just haven't had time to fix the other 20 lame things I did. Crom's Gold will be released sometime and hopefully ALL of the problems will be sorted out.
Rest assured that my upcoming has NO bashdoors, NO ten stage lockpicks (my petpeeve), and the storyline will actually not only make sense but will be complete with a few small side stories tied in.
Taff on :)
BlueNinja on 4/3/2003 at 20:08
Quote:
Preno - There is actualy a key for the door in Crom's Blade...
The door I'm thinking of had a chest, and a key on a table behind it, yet was unfrobbable. Annoying.
And I'll look forward to Crom's Gold, assuming I ever find the other two oroborus in Crom's Blade. ;)
ghg76 on 7/3/2003 at 04:03
:tsktsk: Heres a complaint I havent seen yet....GOD AWFUL WRITING, in scrolls, books, parchments whatever, when you read stuff like " Garret get bad bump, now must kill treetor with golden button most hidden! Find library stack! Dissapear like brick in face." Or "Catacombs many hidden 9 years now, find passage for secret in middle."
I mean come on, its like you spend weeks dromeding these levels, how hard is it to write complete and coherent sentences...or better yet add some kind of plot that actually makes sense! Instead of always going for the spider/zombie in the basement routine, try a little intrigue.
I don't know, is anyone with me on this?
Schwaa2 on 7/3/2003 at 04:18
Quote:
Originally posted by ghg76 :
I mean come on, its like you spend weeks dromeding these levels, how hard is it to write complete and coherent sentences... Weeks? That's total work time :) my ALMOST finish Fm is 12:04:09:53 currently
that's 12 days, 4 hours, 9 minutes and 53 seconds (who has time to write?).And that's not including 3d modeling time, texture creation, voices, writing...
No seriously, good writing is a must, but long extended passages that take an hour each to read with twenty plus pages. Well a good storyline is one thing...
Long books don't really bother me too bad, unless there is a KEY phrase located 12 pages in.
epithumia on 7/3/2003 at 05:02
Not everyone who makes missions speaks English as their primary language. Some authors speak almost no English at all; withess the Japanese missions, which it seems you are specifically criticising. Yet still we play and enjoy them. It is far too much to ask that everyone who wishes to make missions learn English first.
Not that there aren't plenty of folks here willing to proofread, mind you. But an author who speaks little or no English isn't exactly going to hang around here, either.
