Salokin on 23/12/2001 at 01:02
On the religion issue it certainly isn't that I have a personal dislike of Christianity, but more that Christianity is *not* a part of the Thief world. 'Circle of Strain 3' has an introductory text which explains that the aim of the mission is to retrieve a holy *Christian* goblet, so you expect to see Christian symbology in the mission, which is fine. The problem is when designers just stick crosses into areas to denote religion. Crosses do not donate religion in the Thief word, hammers do or various pagan symbols do. I've not played 'Bloodsport' so I cannot comment, but in 'The Ritual' the inclusion of a new religion or order, just as with the inclusion of Christianity in 'CoS3', was explained in the introductory text. Therefore the new religion, even if, like Christianity, it actually exists in the Real World (TM), then becomes a part of the Thief world for the course of that mission at least.
An example of this in a non-religious sense would be if I made a mission which, without explanation, pitted Garrett against an incredibly athletic man dressed head to toe in tight black clothing, with a cloth covering all of his head but for his eyes, wielding two sharp swords and throwing spiked discs. Yes, you'd probably recognise him as a ninja, and therefore as a serious threat, but he would stand out as something which doesn't really belong in the Thief world. Now, were I to explain his origins (perhaps, like the Hand Brotherhood, he comes from a distant land), you *might* be more willing to accept his inclusion.
This is effectively my problem with including Christianity. Sure, there is no reason not to, as long as it is properly explained, but there really isn't any reason to in the first place. It detracts from the sense that you are in the world of Thief just as much as my ninja friend would, and so I just don't think it is a good idea.
schwaa on 23/12/2001 at 02:28
One more thing that I didn't see posted,
objects that float, away from the floors or walls. If its one torch that hangs out from the wall that's one thing (things get overlooked once in a while), but if alot of torches are hanging in limbo it can break the mood.
<br />equilibrium said bad architecture, things that wouldn't be done in the real world, which brings to mind a conversation I had the other day, we were talking about The Winchester Mansion. If anybody doesn't know, Winchester Rifles... The old widow was superstitious and had TONS of money so she had laborors building onto the mansion constantly, build a room there, build a staircase here, hallway, secret room... I've done the tour, its crazy, you look out a window and there's a brickwall three inches away, you go up a staircase and it deadends. She thought the house was haunted and all these weird hallways would trap the ghosts.
Mr Tea on 27/12/2001 at 00:07
I dont like the authors to impose their own interpretation of Garretts'personality onto the player. I also dont like to read Garretts' thoughts, these arent my thoughts. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
When I play Thief I am Garrett, the first person viewpoint becomes an extension of myself in an enviroment and atmosphere that has been predetermined by the developers. It is not for the FM makers to change these parameters, ie, the Christian thing.
As another example I recently began a FM where close to the start you click on a door (without a gold plaque) and the top-screen narrative explains that Garrett has made his own personal rooms resemble a pub. Why? I wouldnt do that, and I am supposed to be Garrett. Besides, if Garrett were to do such a thing then surely he would be a bit of a tw*t, and I dont think he is. The game is about theft not interior decoration. <img src="graemlins/weird.gif" border="0" alt="[Weird]" />
This may sound like a picky point, but imagine a more extreme example. I'm not a homophobe, but how would you feel about playing a well constructed Thief mission where Garrett has to go and rescue a gay lover? I'm not gay so this doesn't fit my involvement with Garrett and his world. However a gay person may feel differently and play the game "Liberace" style. This is his perogative of course but it should'nt be forced on me. I already have a well defined conception of who Garrett is. I dont want the author to try and change it.
If its not applied or intimated in the OM's then it shouldn't be added afterwards as a primative method of filling out a substandard storyline.
Er....sorry <img src="graemlins/erm.gif" border="0" alt="[Erm...]" />
I have no complaints when FM designers use a lead other than Garrett in their creations however.
sexypat on 28/12/2001 at 16:30
i think that wasn't mentionned but i get mad when i only have 0ne shield left and then you find lots of food but with no restoring power ..
Hit Deity on 29/12/2001 at 17:07
EVEN BEFORE I STARTED CREATING FMs, I was of the mind that the creator of the FM was just that - the 'creator'. If he/she wants to put pot-bellied burricks in tutus and dancing samurai polar bears in their mission, then they can. It's their mission, they're creating it, so they can do whatever they want to.
That's the beauty of creating a FM, writing a book, composing a song, painting a picture, or whatever creation process someone is undertaking, they are in charge. Whether people read, listen to, play, or look at their creations is the subjective result. If creators/authors choose to make off the wall, ridiculous stuff, then their creations probably won't be as well-received as they'd like, and there won't be a demand for their stuff. If they create things the majority of players, readers, etc. like, then they will be rewarded.
That's how I see it. I don't see how we as players can dictate what designers do or how they do it, other than not to play their stuff. It's as simple as that. I personally don't see a problem with any unique design, but the author must understand that it might not be well-received if they go out on a limb and do something controversial.
Final statement to FM authors: "Make whatever you want to make." Players owe you the responsibility of at least trying it before they make up their minds about it. To just dismiss something out of hand because of a description or topic would be folly.
Sharga on 30/12/2001 at 01:15
HD: I fully agree with you. The creator has any right to do what they want in the mission. Even if others don't like it. Sure, it is unpleasant to see Garrett do something against your view of him, but just think: everyone has a different view of how the "real" Garrett is so it's impossible to create one that pleases everyone. I wouldn't play an FM where Garrett is supposed to be gay, but if someone wants to try making one they can go right ahead. And it's hard not to let Garrett have any writings. The beginning text of the game almost always has some opinion from Garrett or another.
<br />
Quote:
Originally posted by Hit Deity:<br /><strong>If he/she wants to put pot-bellied burricks in tutus and dancing samurai polar bears in their mission, then they can. </strong><hr></blockquote><br />Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing that. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
And I also feel that every FM deserves at least a try. If you don't like it fine, but at least try it. Never judge an FM only by what you hear of it. There are many fms I love that many people hate. Everyone's different.
Anyway I'm not trying to dog on you, Mr Tea. I'm just telling you how I feel about it.
And schwaa: Very interesting story, I'd like to see that place. Also, about things that wouldn't be done in real life, they aren't necessarily bad. Thief:TDP had tons of archetecture you wouldn't see in real life and we all love that don't we? The sword was one of my favorites and most of it you would never see in real life. I think it all depends on the type of mission. Of course, there are some times when an area will seem a little out of place because of the way it looks. So it is good to keep in mind how things would be built in RL.
equilibrium on 30/12/2001 at 04:45
A second dislike of mine, besides bad architecture, is - solid doors that go nowhere. I am referring to wooden doors or metal doors that you think might go somewhere, but in actuality don't go anywhere. How many times have you wasted time looking for a key or lever to open a door only to find out later that that door doesn't go anywhere? How many times have you smashed down a door only to find a wall? In my opinion, if a door is not meant to be used then make it obvious to the player that he/she need not bother with that door.
Hit Deity on 30/12/2001 at 16:02
I couldn't decide about doors that wouldn't actually be used or go anywhere in my FMs:
The first possibility: make it unfrobbable and it doesn't light up. Then the player will know it can't be used, or probably won't.
Second possibility: make it locked but not pickable, bashable, or no key to it. This would seem more likely and realistic, because if you came across a door in real life that you had no way of opening, then it would look and sound like any other door, right?
I opt for the first method. Even though it's slightly less realistic, it makes gameplay more focused, in my opinion.
Zail on 31/12/2001 at 19:30
Here are some other tips for FM makers.
Don't do open Betas. It's pure suicide. The demands it places on you are insane. Stick to 2 to 4 people. Give them the first draft and get all of their opinions before making a second draft. Then repeat.
Going through the entire level once is not enough for alpha tests. Things that may have happened on that run-through may not happen on the next (stupid well, stupid gate <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ).
Make at least one thing that is truely unique in each of your levels. This will help make it more memorable and interesting to play.
Some people (act like they are/are) illiterate when they play thief. Don't put in many obsticles where they have to read something to figure it out.
Zail
schwaa on 31/12/2001 at 20:34
Quote:
Originally posted by Hit Deity:<br /><strong>I couldn't decide about doors that wouldn't actually be used or go anywhere in my FMs:
The first possibility: make it unfrobbable and it doesn't light up. Then the player will know it can't be used, or probably won't.
Second possibility: make it locked but not pickable, bashable, or no key to it. This would seem more likely and realistic, because if you came across a door in real life that you had no way of opening, then it would look and sound like any other door, right?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Another possibility, is using a texture from a door, converting it to<br />.pcx and copy/paste over an existing texture (metal for metal door, ect...). That way it'll match the doors in your mission, won't be frobable, but will have the right sound props if needed.
