willywanker on 3/4/2002 at 13:20
Many mission characteristics which, had I any talent, I wouldn't have created in a certain way still don't annoy me. I accept and am grateful for most FMs as is. What DOES annoy me are:
1) missions which start Garrett without a blackjack. This idea was never clever and is no longer fresh. A professional like Garrett has a dozen blackjacks and they are small enough he can carry three, should he lose one or be searched, etc.
2) missions which start without lockpicks (see 1). A recent mission released had Garrett crossing a town to find one lock pick and then hunting through a labrynth to find the other lockpick up some buggar's arse or something. No thank you very much. I like to play Thief, not Scavanger Hunt.
Calendra's Legacy is the first mission I've ever played which violates my personal rule about not playing missions which offer these quandries, and after first enjoying it I'm near the point where I say "I told myself so." I'm going to post my question in the Calendra topic, but it brings up my third dislike:
3) Doing something before the bell tolls. God that sucks. Here's why: I think most players are like me and save via quicksave. I am in a saved spot now where I don't think I can meet the requirement before the game kills me because I didn't make the deadline. The designers have created a possible situatuion for me, the player, that I will have to replay the entire game to try again, and for a goal which makes no sense given the plot they themselves created. To wit: if the cardinal wants the valuable relic he'll bloody well take it at 12:07 as at 12.
Brian T on 19/2/2003 at 09:22
My main gripes with the FMs are, in order:
1)Incongruity between visible shadow and the visibility gem. Often in a FM I'm playing, areas which look to have good shadow cover turn actually out to leave me very visible according to the gem reading. It sometimes makes a mockery of the classic "sneak from one area of shadow to another" Thief technique. From what I understand of Dromed light values are tricky to implement, and visibility is down to the designer's opinion, but on occasion I think the designers get it wildly wrong. But they're human! (At least I hope they are :erm: )
2) Maps/ Most FMs don't actually have a map, or at best have a crude drawing of two square's (which are meant to represent buildings) with sometimes a "patrol" x mark. It just seems that many designers can't be bothered with maps. But a helpful map can greatly improve a mission. Just think of Thieve's Guild. few people like this mission, because they just end up getting lost in the sewers. But with a more helpful map it could have been a lot more enjoyable. The basic premise of the mission was quite clever -steal from a Thief. But too often you just chase your own tail in the sewers. I'd like to see some better maps in the FMs.
3) Lengthy lockpicking of chests which have no content, or are far from guards. Pointless dull and frustrating.
4) Bland and repetitive textures. Too much of this lessens one of Thiefs' greatest qualities- atmosphere. It helps to keep the palyer's eyes alert, not jaded.
5) Mazes. But I think 99.99% of players dislike these.
But I hope those are helpful criticisms, not seemingly ungrateful grumblings. I suppose I'm getting a bit more discerning with the fan missions, and while at first I loved them all, now I'm more interested in the quality rather than the quantity of them. I'm idebted to you designers! BTW I read that the designer of Lord Rothchild's Shadow seems embarrassed with it now. Why? I think it's very good. Maybe the architechure is a bit odd in places, and the maze in the tomb was annoying but I thought the mission had a lot of atmosphere.
eepcat on 19/2/2003 at 18:34
One thing that I dislike is an overuse of books, scrolls, etc. Often times, a few cleverly placed texts help progress the plot, but many times they are just superflulous and take me away from the game for too long. There are many missions where this happens, but it is very difficult to resist frobbing books because there may be a very important clue.
- eep!
OHHDEAR on 19/2/2003 at 23:11
First, I hate hunting every nook and cranny for loot. This is Thief, not "get lucky and see something lit up." Copper coins on wooden tables is not l33t. If I can KO/kill every guard on the level and come away WITHOUT the loot requirement, someone is going to die. You are welcome to drop copper coins on wooden tables or gold nuggets in meaningless places, but ensure that I don't need them for the loot requirement or you might find that I will extract a sufficient amount to cover the loot requirement from your own house. While I'm on that, spread the loot logically. Most FMs do this, but just make sure the loot is where it should logically be in a rich person's house.
Second, if I spend more time reading than stealing, prepare to die unless I enjoy the reading.
Third, I hate lockpicking as an excuse to make the door hard to open. I have spent more time lockpicking than thieving far too often. If there are guards around, I'll play only if you make a game of it, but I despise people who lock doors just for the heck of it. As a corollary, some people should have keys for those locked doors. OMs were pretty good about this in general, but no FMs I have seen are.
Fourth, forget realism. Every place you go should have some reason to be there.
Fifth, no spiders. Honestly.
Sixth, optional, but try to give us at least one simple beyond stealth puzzle. Something cool you can do to get around the room OTHER than crouching and moss arrows. Play Embracing the Enemy for at least two good examples.
Sarik on 19/2/2003 at 23:35
Secret passages that open with an impossible-to-find button. There was one contest mission where I had to go into dromed and still have trouble finding the freaking button, which ended up being a good deal away from the sliding painting in the first place. There was no text refering to where this button was . . .
It's even worse when combined with the fact that this secret nook had to be opened to actually complete the mission
(The mission I'm refering to was actually good for the most part, but that got to me)
Torches and Books as triggers are okay, though.
Guybrush Thiefwood on 20/2/2003 at 01:19
Yes maybe this was explained, but I still can't understand the second mission in Calendra's Legacy. After spending an entire mission with the main point of meeting Basso to get your equipment you start the second with absolutely nothing! Why? Why would Garret or ANYONE do this?
Too Much Coffee on 20/2/2003 at 01:32
I assume we are talking about Fan Missions.
What I dislike are objects placed in a fan mission that look completely out of place in the Thief realm. Things like real photos of hot girls, modern looking appliances, clear glass windows, and anything else that just makes you pause and say "what the hell is that doing in here?" It really spoils the atmosphere.
zacharias on 20/2/2003 at 02:30
Quote:
Originally posted by Guybrush Thiefwood Yes maybe this was explained, but I still can't understand the second mission in Calendra's Legacy. After spending an entire mission with the main point of meeting Basso to get your equipment you start the second with absolutely nothing! Why? Why would Garret or ANYONE do this? The explanation in the text went something like this: "Wearing an arsenal to meet a rich client is the sign of an amateur - which you are not." And the briefing movie basically made the same point, to be loaded with equipment and weapons when meeting an important and rich client was bad taste.
Guybrush Thiefwood on 20/2/2003 at 02:59
:sly:
My mistake. Its been too long since I've played that mission so I forgot about that. I guess I'll give it another go when I have some time, because I haven't finished it yet.
charlzbrown on 20/2/2003 at 18:06
I agree with many of the suggestions for a good mission, and would like to include these personal preferences.
1. When you start a mission and there is no obvious reason why you are in the current location. There should always be something like a window, door, gate, rope... or something that gives you an idea of how you got there.
2. Torches that are too close to a wooden ceiling. I remember seeing a mission, i can't remember the name, but the designer had metal plates installed above the torches to protect the wood... brilliant.
3. Lots of people who are just standing around doing nothing. It's nice to have at least a conversation happening, or some movement, like a person in the kitchen in one of the c4 missions who actually looked like they were preparing a meal.
4. It's nice when a designer adds little personal knick-knacks to rooms to make them look used.
This thread is great, it is definitely helping we with ideas for my current mission (first one)
