smithpd on 5/11/2006 at 19:34
Good point, Orbweaver, but....
I have used Nvidia for seven years, but I have a few reasons for wanting to switch to ATI, all related to compatibility with Thief. If it were not for Thief 1 and 2, Nvidia would be my clear choice. My reasons are:
1) Nvidia screwed up the color palette of dark textures in T1 and T2 (the well known bad sky problem, but it extends beyond that) somewhere in driver series 5xxx. There is no fix for that.
2) The safe_texture_manager bug occurred at about the same time. That can be fixed now, but maybe not in the future (see below).
3) Newer versions of Nvidia cards like 6800 do not work with older drivers that do not have the above two problems, so I can't get away from (1) and (2).
4) Somewhere in Nvidia driver series 8xxx, Nvidia drivers stopped working for T1 and T2, at least for some people. The newer drivers (9xxx and maybe lower) have the safe_texture_manager bug, but the common fixes (see TTLG FAQ) no longer work. Some experience with that is (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109590&highlight=nvidia+drivers) described here. To solve this problem, one needs to revert to driver 84.21 or before.
5) There is a very narrow window of Nvidia drivers that work (if at all) on current Nvidia cards. As I understand from Nvidia's site, the 7900 GTX needs 84.21 or above. 7950 begins its official support in 9xxx, so it might not work. It looks to me like the 7900 could be the end of the road for Nvidia cards that can run T1 / T2. In any case, if Nvidia introduces one new feature that requires 9xxx or above, we are hosed.
So I am thinking, even if I can make Nvidia work right now on a card of my choice, it is the end of the road. I don't want to support a company that does not support Thief. Also, I would like to have my good dark textures and good sky back anyway, as a matter of principle. ATI is the only choice for that. Plus, a fix for the ATI fog problem is reported in the FAQ. Does this make sense?
I don't want this thread to deteriorate into a debate on Nvidia vs. ATI, because each has its fans, but if I am wrong on any of the above, please let me know! :)
I'll go back on topic in my next post.
smithpd on 5/11/2006 at 19:46
OK now. Based on this discussion and a lot of web surfing, I have tentatively concluded that the correct 1:1 pixel aspect ratio (no stretching) can be obtained only as follows:
1. Use a 3:4 monitor, avoidng widescreen altogether.
2. Use an ATI card along with a Dell monitor (2007WFP), setting the monitor to scale correctly in the monitor control. I can find no other monitors with this feature.
3. Use a current Nvidia card 7900 or below, driver version 84.21 or below, and any widescreen monitor, setting "Fixed aspect ratio timing" in the Nvidia driver. Support of T1 and T2 in future Nvidia cards and drivers is doubtful.
4. Wait and see if ATI can get their act together on aspect ratio.
This is a bad deal all around. I am tempted to wait (option 4). My second choice would be (2) ATI + Dell, but I don't like the idea of being locked into one monitor vendor.
Does this make sense?
OrbWeaver on 6/11/2006 at 21:38
Quote Posted by smithpd
So I am thinking, even if I can make Nvidia work right now on a card of my choice, it is the end of the road. I don't want to support a company that does not support Thief. Also, I would like to have my good dark textures and good sky back anyway, as a matter of principle. ATI is the only choice for that. Plus, a fix for the ATI fog problem is reported in the FAQ. Does this make sense?
I can't comment on your specific issues since I don't own an nVidia card and haven't played T1/T2 for ages, however I would be wary of assuming that ATI's support for Thief is any better than nVidia's.
Graphics card manufacturers are busy trying to outcompete each other in performance of the latest games, and older games get left by the wayside very quickly whichever brand you go with. Even if ATI have better support NOW, it is highly probable that future driver upgrades could break your legacy games.
The best suggestion I have seen thus far is to build an older computer specifically for playing Thief, using cheap second-hand parts and a graphics card that was high-spec at the time (and thus has much better support for the games).
smithpd on 7/11/2006 at 05:31
Quote Posted by OrbWeaver
... The best suggestion I have seen thus far is to build an older computer specifically for playing Thief, using cheap second-hand parts and a graphics card that was high-spec at the time (and thus has much better support for the games).
I have a couple of those. No purchase necessary.:) All this discussion comes about because I have been thinking about building a new computer that would be a killer for modern games
and have improved T1 and T2 graphics. That is only possible if I switch to ATI. I was hoping that widescreen would be part of that picture, but choices seem too limited now. All I really have to do is defer the purchase of a new monitor until I am ready for it, or it is ready for me.
BTW, to get good quality T1 & T2 graphics with Nvidia, I would have to take back my Ti 4200 with Omega drivers, which is now on my wife's desk. :) Rather than fight my wife over her computer, I'm tempted to just stick an ATI card in my current computer and be done with it.
I am still hoping to discover more monitors that display 1:1 or to see a revision in the ATI drivers. I won't hold my breath.
poroshin on 12/11/2006 at 06:14
I have a widescreen monitor (Dell 24") and nVidia 6800U. Playing it in 4:3 ratio is fine, sice that's how it was meant to be played. If there's an easy way to make it play widescreen, that'd be cool. But it's fine as it is.
smithpd on 12/11/2006 at 19:28
Quote Posted by poroshin
I have a widescreen monitor (Dell 24") and nVidia 6800U. Playing it in 4:3 ratio is fine, sice that's how it was meant to be played. If there's an easy way to make it play widescreen, that'd be cool. But it's fine as it is.
To make it play 4:3, do you use the monitor's aspect ratio scaling feature (in the On Screen menu) or Nvidia's scaling feature (in the driver menu), or both? I've never tried it, but I imagine that if you had the scaling feature turned off in both places it would stretch to wide screen, resulting in fat people.
BTW, extensive internet research seems to indicate that Dell is the only brand that can correctly control the scaling in the monitor. Some others claim to, but they do not work, according to reviews.
dracflamloc on 13/11/2006 at 16:05
Quote Posted by smithpd
OK now. Based on this discussion and a lot of web surfing, I have tentatively concluded that the correct 1:1 pixel aspect ratio (no stretching) can be obtained only as follows:
1. Use a 3:4 monitor, avoidng widescreen altogether.
2. Use an ATI card along with a Dell monitor (2007WFP), setting the monitor to scale correctly in the monitor control. I can find no other monitors with this feature.
3. Use a current Nvidia card 7900 or below, driver version 84.21 or below, and any widescreen monitor, setting "Fixed aspect ratio timing" in the Nvidia driver. Support of T1 and T2 in future Nvidia cards and drivers is doubtful.
4. Wait and see if ATI can get their act together on aspect ratio.
This is a bad deal all around. I am tempted to wait (option 4). My second choice would be (2) ATI + Dell, but I don't like the idea of being locked into one monitor vendor.
Does this make sense?
Just buy an old PCI graphics card made by S3 or Intel or something, or if your mobo has an interval VGA, enable it in parallel to your AGP/PCIX card. Then just plug a monitor into the builtin or PCI card and play thief on that. No need for fancy gfx cards with thief 1+2
Cobra on 13/11/2006 at 16:06
I also have a widescreen monitor (although it is attached to a laptop.) It has an ATI mobility X600 in, as well a ATI driver.
To run dark engine games, all I need to do is turn down the graphics card so it disables cursor and advanced drawing animations. It then works fine in normal aspect ratio, with two black bars at the sides of the screen (duh.) Same applies for SS2, unsurprisingly.
I am not sure how much that helps you, but for me stretching has never been a problem for me playing theif (although it did keep crashing to desktop before I realised the workaround.) But if you like I can provide a fuller account of my system (although, as you are going for a desktop with a widescreen, I don't know how much it will help.
poroshin on 13/11/2006 at 17:59
Quote Posted by smithpd
To make it play 4:3, do you use the monitor's aspect ratio scaling feature (in the On Screen menu) or Nvidia's scaling feature (in the driver menu), or both? I've never tried it, but I imagine that if you had the scaling feature turned off in both places it would stretch to wide screen, resulting in fat people.
BTW, extensive internet research seems to indicate that Dell is the only brand that can correctly control the scaling in the monitor. Some others claim to, but they do not work, according to reviews.
I do indeed have the scaling turned on in the video card control panel. That's how I play all my games I can't get to play in widescreen. Looks pixel-perfect, save for the black sidebars which you don't even notice after a few minutes. Also, no problems whatsoever with the latest nVidia drivers. With the AA and Af turned on all the way up in the same control panel, Theif looks very very good. If needed, I can make some screenshots.
smithpd on 1/12/2006 at 19:37
Quote Posted by Cobra
I also have a widescreen monitor (although it is attached to a laptop.) It has an ATI mobility X600 in, as well a ATI driver.
Yes, the laptop versions of ATI cards work fine. The problem seems to be that the desktop versions don't scale properly. Different drivers, for some odd reason.
