demagogue on 9/5/2019 at 11:49
Yes I was going to add that. I did quite like the art direction in both movies generally.
Like I said (or meant to say) certain visual scenes were memorable and stuck with me.
It's the one thing scifi movies over the last decade have been consistently good at.
henke on 9/5/2019 at 12:21
Yeah I agree with you guys, Alien Covenant was great! ANYWAY,
[video=youtube;HkOguZfNJUo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkOguZfNJUo[/video]
I've been watching I Think You Should Leave on Netflix and it is good stuff. Also watched The Wandering Earth, which is a Chinese sci-fi movie where the earth is about to get swallowed by the sun so they put a bunch of rockets on one side of earth to fly it out of the solar system. Crazy stuff.
Sulphur on 10/5/2019 at 07:25
henke: :o
Quote Posted by Thirith
There are elements and aspects of both
Prometheus and
Alien: Covenant that I like a lot. Some of
Prometheus especially is visually gorgeous, the performances in
Covenant are generally strong, and I like the motifs of creator gods rejecting their creation (
Prometheus) and the mirror image of this we get in
Covenant, where an android created by man rebels against his creators by becoming the creator of abominations himself. There's potential in so much of this, but the scripts are not up to the job and the need to tie into the overall
Alien mythos definitely doesn't either. Having the elements in there that are worthwhile just makes the failure of the two films more keenly felt IMO.
I've been tugging at the thread of what you're saying, and y'know, in principle I wouldn't disagree with your take. Yes, some individual components of the movies held up (and with Scott, you can comfortably bet it's production design and cinematography). And yes, the ideas would have been interesting for an entirely different IP altogether, even if still fundamentally fucked from a storytelling perspective.
So the overarching theme of what Prometheus and A:C have to say is that creators are flawed, their creations are flawed, and the cycle we're part of is flawed. These are not new ideas, and they're not presented with a level of sophistication or depth that provides a different perspective or even something as compelling as the Greek mythology the films borrow from. As a thought experiment, it doesn't go far enough. There's no light of realisation at the conclusion, no catharsis, and no resonance. It's just an idea that terminates itself: what if our creators were fallible? (Answer: oh em gee. What else? Hm. Right. There is not anything else.)
Is there value in that? Sure, I guess, if it's welded to a human story that works as low-key
counterpoint. But how do you work that into a series that's primarily about an entirely tangential set of forces (corporate greed, the human penchant for survival, the ingrained horror of our own everyday biology, and the fear of the unknown)?
You don't. It's really that simple. It's a
spectacular misjudgment as far as I'm concerned because unless you're a screenwriting prodigy that combines the talents of Kubrick, Clarke, Dick and Spielberg's mastery of the economy of each shot that goes into a movie, with that many moving parts what you'll end up with is an explosive mess. And Scott and Lindelof & co. went with it anyway. It's fundamentally narcissistic in concept and execution.
Which is of course the focus of this entire rant. While that self-reflexivity might be pleasing from one angle (of
course humanity would stare into the face of the unknown and see themselves staring back, they're self-obsessed!), the feeling I had when they cracked open that Space Jockey's helmet in Prometheus and revealed a human face, was a sense of disappointment so palpable that I could have held it in my hands.
I realised then that what was in my hands was, in fact, my own face, because that's about all anyone can do when they can't contain their disappointment.
And that's funny, isn't it. Because self-reflexivity is such a fucking bitch.
Thirith on 10/5/2019 at 08:33
Someone - possibly multiple someones - mentioned that Alien: Covenant could've been a Blade Runner film, and I agree: take out the Alien tie-ins, and possibly the story it tells, and the characters it creates with David and Walter, would have resonated more and better with that particular universe.
Sulphur on 10/5/2019 at 08:40
I wouldn't mind understanding why David, an artificially sentient life form designed by humans blessed with hindsight and fine-grained control over their work, was programmed into being with the psychological makeup of a homicidal manchild, that's for sure.
rachel on 10/5/2019 at 14:18
The supercharged Firefly that is the Prometheus starship is the only salvageable thing in the eponymous movie. I started watching Covenant and quit halfway through, it was so bad.
Such disappointments.
Edit: that DUST short you posted earlier was ace, icemann. Thanks for the share!
demagogue on 11/5/2019 at 00:47
The way Sulph described opening the Jockey's helmet reminds me of Luke cracking open dream Darth Vader's helmet only to see his own face. That trope has providence and makes sense in narrative terms. It's just you don't want to do that with the literal physical guy or it turns it into a ham fisted klunk scene, like the author is so keen on pushing a theme they have to literally shove it into a world that didn't ask for it. I guess part of movie viewing maturity is liking one's symbolism more nuanced & thoughtful...
SubJeff on 11/5/2019 at 05:59
EvaUnit is on the blacklist now.
6/10 for Covenant is a joke. It's so awful.
Prometheus had a great premise (and yes looked great) but was just poorly executed. It was so close though. Less stupidity would have improved it immensely.
But Covenant? No stupidity. OH HEY GUYS WE NEVER DID A PATHOGEN CHECK OH LETS TAKE OF HELMETS O WAT THIS? A BLACK PATHOGEN IN DA FOREST NOW WE MESSED UP YO
Sulphur on 11/5/2019 at 11:45
Quote Posted by demagogue
The way Sulph described opening the Jockey's helmet reminds me of Luke cracking open dream Darth Vader's helmet only to see his own face. That trope has providence and makes sense in narrative terms. It's just you don't want to do that with the
literal physical guy or it turns it into a ham fisted klunk scene, like the author is so keen on pushing a theme they have to literally shove it into a world that didn't ask for it. I guess part of movie viewing maturity is liking one's symbolism more nuanced & thoughtful...
That's pretty much it. I have no issue with the trope as long as it serves a deeper read of the situation, and in TESB it serves its purpose as foreshadowing of where Luke's headed if he makes the same mistakes Anakin did. Contrast with Prometheus, where it's used as a subversive wink at the audience to say, 'Ta da! We were created by the aliens all along!
No John, you are the demons.' Instead of deepening the context, it actively flattens out everything that was interesting about Alien's original mysteries. In space no one can hear you groan, but in a movie theatre everyone can hear you gargle your disbelief into an extra-large cup of coke zero.
My punishment for taking my friends to see Prometheus was that they got to choose whichever movie all of us saw next, and that no one would need to brook my discontent over their choice.
That next movie was Snow White and the Huntsman. I believe I still got off with the better end of that deal.
Tocky on 11/5/2019 at 16:27
I haven't seen Covenant. If I do it will be for it's own sake and not some tie in to the Alien saga. To me that is the problem. Since Aliens none of the movies have followed the theme of the original. I suppose you could say A3 did to some extent but went dark action flick with no theme or redemption. It just made an ending and a bad one.
So now the series takes off in a different direction with Prometheus. Okay. I'm not wedded to Alien. That it takes one element from it and expands on that to a creator theme is cool by me but explore that if you are going to introduce it and that to me was all Prometheus was. It was a setup movie. The big reveal had already been given away at the very beginning. Ah but the biggest reveal was that our creators didn't give a shit about us. THAT was the thing to explore with the next movie. At the end of it we had the main protagonist set to go to their world, to demand why, to stand before the ultimate parent and declare our worth. If necessary to spit it Gods face. Does that get explored? This is Alien so of course not. Since Aliens none have followed the others as a natural progression and exploration of the setup provided. No. Every writer has their own idea. They may not be bad ideas but they are not picking up the mantel.
The progression from Aliens should have been going after the corporate machine instead of a pussy out we can't do anything about our real unstoppable evil because it is so ingrained so just ignore it and go after the symptom in some dark give up. To me that is soul crushing. I would have liked to see Newt save Ripley. I would have liked to see Newt save us all. The best in us emerging from a child we risked all to save. Not to be too pollyanna but we need hope we can prevail over the dark authoritarian forces which are the worst of our nature. It's how I feel about our corporate world today. We need saving and instead we get leaders that enable our worst aspects.